Imaginary Heritage Railways

[The Johnster]

On 02/05/2024 at 15:17, SM42 said:

I've always wondered what would have transpired over the years if the SVR had gone north rather than south from Bridgnorth. 

 

An interesting concept, SM42.  It sort of ties in with the Ironbridge industrial heritage stuff, and the main line connection would have presumably been at the power station, which would be a connection to the Horsehay people.  Not likely to have ever happened, of course, given that the track was already gone north of Bridgnorth Tunnel and still in good condition all the way down to Kiddy when the preservationists moved in; in fact it was still in use as far as the colliery and there were still passenger services to Bewdley via Kidderminster in those days.  Ironbridge gorge is attractive scenically and of course the bridge itself is a major attraction.

 

The current SVR is a well-run and competent organisation that would be well capable of restoring the Bridgnorth-Ironbridge section, but it would not have been as capable of doing that in the early days.  Under Gerald Nabarro (it has not always been best served by it's chairmen) it seems to not have been quite as well-run, and did not have the resources anyway. Incidents like the Sterns washout would have sunk it.

[The Johnster]

On 02/05/2024 at 17:04, Orion said:

TBH the whole line from Uttoxeter through Leek should probably have never closed

 

Preservation beyond Leek presumably carried out under the policy of Manifold Destiny... 

 

Sorry, it's that sort of silly Saturday avo.  Out on the patio with the firepit later.

[SM42]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

An interesting concept, SM42.  It sort of ties in with the Ironbridge industrial heritage stuff, and the main line connection would have presumably been at the power station, which would be a connection to the Horsehay people.  Not likely to have ever happened, of course, given that the track was already gone north of Bridgnorth Tunnel and still in good condition all the way down to Kiddy when the preservationists moved in; in fact it was still in use as far as the colliery and there were still passenger services to Bewdley via Kidderminster in those days.  Ironbridge gorge is attractive scenically and of course the bridge itself is a major attraction.

 

The current SVR is a well-run and competent organisation that would be well capable of restoring the Bridgnorth-Ironbridge section, but it would not have been as capable of doing that in the early days.  Under Gerald Nabarro (it has not always been best served by it's chairmen) it seems to not have been quite as well-run, and did not have the resources anyway. Incidents like the Sterns washout would have sunk it.

 

I was presuming  the colliery remained linked from the Ironbridge end ( handy bulk customer) and the Kidderminster end was lifted beyond the sugar factory at Foley Park. 

 

The section south of Bridgnorth falling into disuse when the collieries closed, but the infant SVR not having the funds to reopen  it  for some years after securing the Northern section and priorities being getting to Ironbridge and an end on junction with the national network. 

 

Quite recently the SVR opened a new terminus station on land acquired behind Madeley Jn signalbox following the closure of the Ironbridge Power Station. At some point, when funds allow, the new station building will be completed with the opening of the restaurant wing. 

 

Replacing the demolished Victoria Bridge would be a major obstacle along with various embankment failures on the southern section in the intervening years 

 

Another alternative scenario being the Hartlebury - Stourport- Bewdley section remained in use rather than the Kidderminster- Bewdley section 

 

We could go one further and forget the real and above imagined histories and presume the line to Tenbury remained lingering on into the 70s. 

 

Shropshire coal mining having ended in the 50s ( quite how my paternal grandfather would make a living through the 60s is open to conjecture,) killing the line towards Arley and Ditton Priors MOD remained, the reason for the line to stay open, (till the depot's closure, in the mid 70s)  after a limited passenger service to Tenbury  inevitably succumbed to the financially inevitable in the late 60s, despite BR's best cost cutting efforts.

 

The line between Cleobury Mortimer and Tenbury lying intact but moribund for some years until the SVR raised the funds to extend through to Tenbury.  

 

The Ditton Priors branch then remained in use with the SVR with limited services traversing the line from Bewdley, priority being given to running a more intensive Kidderminster - Tenbury service 

 

Andy

Edited May 4 by SM42

[Northmoor]

10 hours ago, SM42 said:

Replacing the demolished Victoria Bridge would be a major obstacle along with various embankment failures on the southern section in the intervening years 

 

That wouldn't be a major obstacle but an absolute one.  The nearest railway preservation has come to replacing missing infrastructure on that scale is probably the new link between the two sections of GCR at Loughborough.  I recall that apart from being developed over in multiple locations (not a problem in this fictional scenario) that landslips were actually  more of a problem on the northern section, than south of Bridgnorth.

[The Johnster]

Not sure that replacing Victoria Bridge would have been an absolute, but it would certainly have been a massive difficulty.  Replacing it with a replica would almost certainly have been impossible, but replacement with a box-girder or concrete beam sounds plausible; the railway did something very similar with the Bridgnorth by-pass bridge.  If the preservation movement taught us anything, it is that little can not be achieved by determined men and women of common purpose, even with little cash and working in appalling conditions.  I would cite the Ffestiniog's Deviation, a serious new-build railway in incredibly difficult terrain with some of the higherst rainfall in the country, as an example.  Duke of Gloucester is another.

 

Landslips seem to be becoming an increasingly common issue for the big railway, as Victorian civil engineering earthworks begin to fail with age and axle loads never dreamed of when they were built.  The last 20 years of profit-taking and intense use have not helped either.  Perhaps the Buddlea roots have destabilised things...

 

 

[Northmoor]

43 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Not sure that replacing Victoria Bridge would have been an absolute, but it would certainly have been a massive difficulty. 

 

I respectfully disagree Herr Johnster.  No preservation scheme has yet replaced a piece of missing single span infrastructure of the length - and more crucially, the height - of Victoria Bridge.  In today's money I'd estimate about £50-100M to replace it and I can't immediately think of any preservation appeals raising over £5M for infrastructure. 

 

The Festiniog Deviation is an incredible achievement but the fact that it could be done largely by hand shows that it wasn't technically difficult.  Volunteers wouldn't be involved in more than the most superficial sense in rebuilding a bridge over the Severn.  You'd also have to consider that in this scenario, why would the SVR be extending South for Bridgnorth?  They would already have a main line connection at Ironbridge and quite likely that passenger services to that end of the line would have been retained by BR.  It's not as close to the WM conurbation as Kidderminster, but how much would they be prepared to pay for a second connection, a little bit closer?

[The Johnster]

50-100million to have it designed and built by contractors, but a lot less if the railway uses it's goodwill and large membership to find in-house engineering design and uses members as far as possible to transport and deliver materials and to do the labouring of the build.  It's still gonna be hideously expensive, but probably more comparable with the by-pass bridge or the river wall at Sterns.  If we are talking about a Bridgnorth-Kidderminster railway, those expesnsive matters would have been in addition to the Victoria Bridge. 

 

But I would respectfully suggest that the Victoria Bridge would be unlikely to be demolished in the first place.  It would cost a fair bit to remove, big cranes and heavy lifts to avoid it blocking the river, and would probably be left in situ.  It is, after all, still happily carrying trains and was not really that likely to fall down 50 years ago!

 

I would suggest that, as a sweeping generalisation, the UK has a surfeit of heritage railways, though, some of which do not really have much to offer in the sense of length, scenic value, or historical importance.  I'm not sure what impression of the steam age modern youngsters pick up from riding in a mk1 open behind a Hunslet 'Austerity' along a 200 yard stretch of track at 5mph while looking at a line of part-restored Barry heaps.

[SM42]

On 07/05/2024 at 20:08, The Johnster said:

50-100million to have it designed and built by contractors, but a lot less if the railway uses it's goodwill and large membership to find in-house engineering design and uses members as far as possible to transport and deliver materials and to do the labouring of the build.  It's still gonna be hideously expensive, but probably more comparable with the by-pass bridge or the river wall at Sterns.  If we are talking about a Bridgnorth-Kidderminster railway, those expesnsive matters would have been in addition to the Victoria Bridge. 

 

But I would respectfully suggest that the Victoria Bridge would be unlikely to be demolished in the first place.  It would cost a fair bit to remove, big cranes and heavy lifts to avoid it blocking the river, and would probably be left in situ.  It is, after all, still happily carrying trains and was not really that likely to fall down 50 years ago!

 

I would suggest that, as a sweeping generalisation, the UK has a surfeit of heritage railways, though, some of which do not really have much to offer in the sense of length, scenic value, or historical importance.  I'm not sure what impression of the steam age modern youngsters pick up from riding in a mk1 open behind a Hunslet 'Austerity' along a 200 yard stretch of track at 5mph while looking at a line of part-restored Barry heaps.

 

The bridge on the Tenbury branch was removed after the line closed so removing another for scrap wouldn't be an issue. 

 

Blow it up in summer, low water levels  . Remove scrap at leisure. 

Or take it down piece by piece and blow the rest 

 

The river is not navigable at Arley

 

The Bridgnorth bypass bridge IIRC was partly funded by the county council and the SVR had been saving up for a good number of years from when the bypass was proposed. 

 

Andy

Edited May 8 by SM42

[Northmoor]

On 07/05/2024 at 20:08, The Johnster said:

50-100million to have it designed and built by contractors, but a lot less if the railway uses it's goodwill and large membership to find in-house engineering design and uses members as far as possible to transport and deliver materials and to do the labouring of the build.  It's still gonna be hideously expensive, but probably more comparable with the by-pass bridge or the river wall at Sterns.  If we are talking about a Bridgnorth-Kidderminster railway, those expesnsive matters would have been in addition to the Victoria Bridge. 

 

But I would respectfully suggest that the Victoria Bridge would be unlikely to be demolished in the first place.  It would cost a fair bit to remove, big cranes and heavy lifts to avoid it blocking the river, and would probably be left in situ.  It is, after all, still happily carrying trains and was not really that likely to fall down 50 years ago!

 

I would suggest that, as a sweeping generalisation, the UK has a surfeit of heritage railways, though, some of which do not really have much to offer in the sense of length, scenic value, or historical importance.  I'm not sure what impression of the steam age modern youngsters pick up from riding in a mk1 open behind a Hunslet 'Austerity' along a 200 yard stretch of track at 5mph while looking at a line of part-restored Barry heaps.

I know this is an "Imaginary" thread but seriously..... Victoria Bridge was NOT going to be recreated by volunteers.  This isn't a bridge over a minor road (or even a wide single carriageway), it's a single span about 200' long and about 80' above the river.   Even in the 1970s, there would have been all sorts of safety requirements to prevent people falling off a bridge worksite into a roadway, but it would be assumed if you did you wouldn't immediately get up (as tragically happened on the NNR in the 1980s).  Working over a river is different because there is an assumption that the person can survive the fall; remember that those working on the Severn Bridge in the 1960s has a lifeboat permanently circulating to recover anyone entering the water.  That costs money.

 

Building a bridge of this scale to carry heavy trains would have required a great deal of commercial input.  To believe otherwise was the delusion from some of those involved in the early days of the Eden Valley Railway, who talked publicly of recreating Belah viaduct as if it were a gigantic Meccano kit which two blokes could recreate with a ladder and a couple of socket sets.

 

Of course in an alternative universe this could all be done because the UK population loved railways so much that a huge proportion (with relevant skills to employ) volunteer on them.  If that was the case, rather fewer railways would have been closed in the first place.  On and on your final paragraph @The Johnster, I agree with you 100%.  Substitute Hunslet Austerity for an R&H 88DS plus brake van and you have my memory of the now vanished Swansea Vale Railway.

[Ben B]

I love stuff like this; I built a micro layout a couple of years ago inspired by the embryonic operation at Dolgarrog, but based off the old MoD line into the dunes near Harlech.  I figured it would be a small, industrial diesels and single mk.1 coach kind of operation, ferrying holidaymakers from the mainline out to the beach.

 

For a line which shouldn't have been closed, mainline, I'd have said Silloth, but it might also make a very nice preserved route.  Characterful seaside town for the terminus, and a link to the mainline inland; if they could have kept the whole route into Carlisle, there could have been the possibility of tapping the WCML and railtours.  Who knows, when the Freightliner runaway happened, and the goods lines were closed, it could have given the fictional preserved line a stop right into the centre of Carlisle, not far from Citadel Station itself. 

[DavidB-AU]

A few ideas with similar themes.

 

The Lynn and Hunstanton Railway. Let's say John Betjeman and Bill Pertwee support an early 1970s campaign to make it a heritage railway. It built a new southern terminus called North Lynn and retained a main line connection. From the early 21st century it is able to run into King's Lynn (c.f. Whitby).

 

Witney to Fairford. Let's say it starts with a heritage railway based at Fairford in the 1960s. Before goods traffic to Witney ceases, the MOD decides it needs sidings at RAF Brize Norton. The heritage railway eventually extends to Brize Norton & Bampton (pretend there is no taxiway across the railway) and gets a main line connection. Eventually it is able to run through to Witney and formally takes over that portion of the line, with MOD trains running over it as required (c.f. Wensleydale Railway). After a few years of GWR summer weekend services, a regular passenger service from Oxford to Witney is restored.

 

"Fordham Town" to Mildenhall with a main line connection at Fordham.

 

"Harpenden Town" to Hemel Hempstead with a main line connection at Harpenden.

 

The Sidmouth line with a new Feniton terminus about here.

[009 micro modeller]

On 26/04/2024 at 20:32, Northmoor said:

I don't doubt it's convenient, but what proportion of the KWVR's passengers arrive by rail (happy to be proved wrong)?  Even the SVR with it's connection at Kidderminster, used to reckon less than 10% of theirs did. 

It's distorted by the running to Whitby now, but even before that was introduced I would guess that the proportion of passengers arriving on the NYMR via the Middlesbrough-Whitby train service, was trivial. 

When I lived in York I visited the K&WVR by train, partly because it was much easier to get to by train than the geographically closer NYMR. I tend to agree with @RichardT on this - it’s a very indirect route to Grosmont/Whitby by National Rail so I’m not sure we can generalise to any great extent.

 

On 25/04/2024 at 15:43, Murican said:

Another musing that crossed my mind was what things would be like if the Padarn Railway had been preserved as it originally was instead of being turned into the Llanberis Lake Railway (I'm from the states, so forgive me if I spelled that wrong).

The spelling looks OK to me. I’ve often wondered about this as well, particularly as the Padarn actually had proper coaches for workers’ trains that could have been reused on a heritage operation. Perhaps if it had survived a bit longer… Obviously this would have meant the current Llanberis Lake line would not exist, and given the original concept (where I think a key point was to provide an amenity in Llanberis itself) I doubt there would have been the motivation to build it elsewhere if the original Padarn line had been retained, and the current lake railway locos would probably still have been preserved elsewhere, so probably not too far-reaching in its wider historical implications.

 

On 27/04/2024 at 09:37, CKPR said:

How about modelling the abandoned or at least proposed  commercial operations mooted in the late 1960s for such lines as the Hayling Island and the Waverley ?

Wasn’t there a plan to use ex-Blackpool trams on the Hayling Island line at one stage? And subsequently I think one of the sites briefly considered for the current narrow gauge Hayling Seaside Railway was the old standard gauge trackbed.

 

On 25/04/2024 at 15:52, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The GNR's Hatfield Luton and Dunstable would be a gem. Really attractive countryside running through an SSSI woodland and along the Lea valley via the Parks of Brocket Hall and Luton Hoo; with mainline connections to the ECML and MML, (and potentially the WCML if the LNWR branch from Leighton to an end on junction at Dunstable was also preserved). Present day, close proximity to the M25, M1 and A1M, and an international airport, in an area seriously short of preserved steam railway operation, and abundantly equipped with a population possessed of money to burn on entertainment.

As it’s local to me I’ve often wondered about that one, and didn’t the group that later settled at Quainton Road once store some stock in Luton? An interesting junction with the Leighton Buzzard NG railway could have been preserved if that section had been retained. Just across the other side of the ECML, I’ve often wondered about Welwyn Garden City to Hertford, but it requires things to happen in a slightly different order from the actual history. If the Shredded Wheat sidings had become disused before the stub of the branch (retained as a siding for a few years) had been removed, then they might have made a suitable location for a heritage railway station and depot, suitably separated from but still connected to the main WGC one. I doubt that the line would have been able to get all the way to the main line connection in Hertford, but by slowly extending east a nice ride could have been created.

 

Another interesting one in Hertfordshire, narrow gauge this time, is the line serving Colne Valley Waterworks, where the trackbed is substantially complete, mostly unobstructed and fairly scenic given its suburban location. Interestingly both Ruston diesel locos are preserved (at Amberley last time I checked). In my alternate history, the short* line (actually closed in 1967) was taken over by a preservation society and run in a manner rather reminiscent of the early years of the Leighton Buzzard line. With the full length preserved from the works to the exchange sidings (on the Rickmansworth Church Street branch) the line was unable to extend further but spent the 1970s and early 80s sorting out some proper passenger facilities (which it obviously wouldn’t have needed originally) and relaying with heavier rail. Once the remaining stub of the standard gauge line to Croxley Mills had been removed in the 1980s, the ex-waterworks line was able to extend over its trackbed, initially to a halt on Croxley Moor and then to a site close to (or at?) the original Church Street terminus, giving a reasonably long overall run of around 2 1/2 miles. This assumes that the Ebury Way cycle way was developed either in a different way or alongside the narrow gauge line, and the alternate history for the Church Street extension is a bit more hazy as while I know when it closed, I don’t know when the site was redeveloped. In terms of wider implications, I don’t know if we’d still have Leighton Buzzard or (perhaps more relevantly given the dates involved) Ruislip Lido in their current forms if this scheme had really taken off, or whether it would have diluted the volunteer interest pool locally. Interestingly in this context, iirc the 12” gauge Ruislip line was at one stage in the 50s or 60s proposed for conversion to 2’ gauge, which would have created a rather different line today if the rest of its history (preservation society takeover and extension) had still happened as it has in reality.

 

If I’m allowed to bend the definition of a preserved/heritage railway slightly, one other defunct local narrow gauge line that I’m quite interested in is the horse-worked 18 1/2” gauge one at Berkhamsted gasworks, with a substantial remaining section of track alongside the WCML on one side and canal on the other. This would have made an interesting leisure/heritage line, either in its original horse-drawn form but with a new passenger vehicle alongside the original wagons, or perhaps as a loco-hauled 10 1/4” gauge miniature line. I’ve seen a comment suggesting the latter was vaguely proposed at one stage, on a local social media page post about the line, but it sounds very vague and I’ve never seen any other evidence of this. Unless the park and the housing estate next to the WCML had developed in a radically different way compared to what really happened, either of these would probably involve abandoning the section through the tunnel under the WCML and building a new section to take the line closer to the car park and playground on the other side of Canal Fields.

 

Further afield, my ultimate fictional preserved railway setup (but at a real railway site) is the Corris Railway, not in its current form but if it had been preserved immediately after closure of the original line. Unlike my other examples this requires some fairly drastic changes to history and has more far-reaching implications. Firstly it presupposes that either the line still closed in 1948 but the UK heritage railway movement got going a few years earlier than it actually did, with this rather than the Talyllyn being the first line, or that the Corris survived into the 1950s (like the Welshpool & Llanfair, which like the Corris was BR-owned, ex-GWR). If it had been preserved in 1948 it seems unlikely that the Talyllyn would still have been preserved in its current form, in fact we might have the exact opposite of the current situation, with the Corris as the long-established line and the Talyllyn as a short, relatively recently-established heritage operation, grown out of a static museum initially established by a few Corris volunteers in the 1960s. If it had kept going into the 1950s that would probably leave the Talyllyn as it is (but complicate the motive power situation, with the Corris locos not being available to purchase), but might have impacted on the Ffestiniog and W&LLR revivals (though for Welshpool, being able to negotiate with BR Western Region jointly alongside the Corris group might actually have been quite helpful for both groups). More abstractly, having an ex-BR line (even if it only was for less than 8 months) successfully preserved at this stage might have made BR more amenable to such schemes, but if unsuccessful it would probably have the opposite effect, substantially changing the course of later railway preservation.

 

*Wikipedia gives the length of the Colne Valley Waterworks line as a mile, however this may include sidings at the waterworks as measuring on Google Earth the main line only seems to be about half that.

 

Edit: reading my own and some of the other posts, some of this is just starting to sound like the ‘fantasy preservation project’ threads we’ve done in the past (though I did initially try to do it slightly differently), but was there a subtle distinction intended by the OP?

Edited May 9 by 009 micro modeller

[The Lurker]

I have read speculation in the past that if the Hawkhurst branch had survived a few years longer, then it might have been chosen as a heritage line, rather than the K&ESR. It had Col Stephens heritage (it was his first project as engineer) although it was always effectively owned and run by the SER and successors, and ran through picturesque countryside.

 

Thinking on this, it would perhaps have had headquarters at Hawkhurst where there was once a small engine shed and a reasonable amount of railway land. In theory there is a mainline link at Paddock Wood, although in reality BR continued to use the Hawkhurst bay platform as a siding well in to the 80s, and parked an EMU there to be a waiting room/booking office when the station building was rebuilt. If they'd been commercially minded they might have been able to justify a morning train to allow commuters and schoolchildren to travel, although the stations were not exactly convenient for most of the places they purported to serve.

[DavidB-AU]

On 26/04/2024 at 00:52, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The GNR's Hatfield Luton and Dunstable would be a gem. 

 

Interestingly there was a very serious proposal for a heritage railway around 2008-2010. The railway was never formally closed and when BRB (Residuary) Ltd sold the reservation to the Council, this (possibly unintentionally) included the original operating powers granted to the Luton, Dunstable and Welwyn Junction Railway in 1855. It would only have required a planning application to the Council to reinstate much of the infrastructure. The now dormant South Bedfordshire Railway Society prepared a very thorough application for an initial section east of the A505 alongside the then proposed busway with a future western extension to Stanbridgeford. Getting as far as Leighton Buzzard was not considered practical as the A505/Leighton Buzzard bypass gets in the way. 

 

The proposal seems to have hit a brick wall with the final plans for the busway taking up too much of the reservation. Unfortunately the web site and all the social media for the society disappeared into the aether around 2010 and only a few fragments are in the Wayback Machine, but it does include a couple of plans that were to accompany the planning application.

 

 

Edited May 24 by DavidB-AU

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 09/05/2024 at 19:53, 009 micro modeller said:

. Just across the other side of the ECML, I’ve often wondered about Welwyn Garden City to Hertford, but it requires things to happen in a slightly different order from the actual history.

Abounds in further difficulties, starting with the industrial sites it passed through as it diverged East from the ECML. The various business outfits adjacent the branch were quick to acquire the track bed when it became available; in the case of my then employer for additional car parking space, and a convenient bridge across Bessemer Road to the outlying 'Tin Can'. Difficulties multiply thereafter with reinstatement of  Tewin Road overbridge and then a pair of level crossings on busy routes required, and aggregate extraction totally removing the track bed after that, all within the next two miles.

 

Oh yes, the track and formation  immediately after diverging from the ECML alignment was in very poor condition having been freight only since 1953, until the last rail served customer ceased taking deliveries in the late 1970s. The first event when BR started lifting the track was their class 31 derailing about 50 yards in...

Edited May 24 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
Supplementary paragraph.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Abounds in further difficulties, starting with the industrial sites it passed through as it diverged East from the ECML. The various business outfits adjacent the branch were quick to acquire the track bed when it became available; in the case of my then employer for additional car parking space, and a convenient bridge across Bessemer Road to the outlying 'Tin Can'. Difficulties multiply thereafter with reinstatement of  Tewin Road overbridge and then a pair of level crossings on busy routes required, and aggregate extraction totally removing the track bed after that, all within the next two miles.

 

Oh yes, the track and formation  immediately after diverging from the ECML alignment was in very poor condition having been freight only since 1953, until the last rail served customer ceased taking deliveries in the late 1970s. The first event when BR started lifting the track was their class 31 derailing about 50 yards in...

Of course, that’s why I think for it to have worked you’d have to have had things closing in quite a different order from in reality.

 

9 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

Interestingly there was a very serious proposal for a heritage railway around 2008-2010. The railway was never formally closed and when BRB (Residuary) Ltd sold the reservation to the Council, this (possibly unintentionally) included the original operating powers granted to the Luton, Dunstable and Welwyn Junction Railway in 1855. It would only have required a planning application to the Council to reinstate much of the infrastructure. The now dormant South Bedfordshire Railway Society prepared a very thorough application for an initial section east of the A505 alongside the then proposed busway with a future western extension to Stanbridgeford. Getting as far as Leighton Buzzard was not considered practical as the A505/Leighton Buzzard bypass gets in the way. 

 

The proposal seems to have hit a brick wall with the final plans for the busway taking up too much of the reservation. Unfortunately the web site and all the social media for the society disappeared into the aether around 2010 and only a few fragments are in the Wayback Machine, but it does include a couple of plans that were to accompany the planning application.

 

 

While I don’t necessarily doubt the seriousness of the original proposal, didn’t it all get slightly ridiculous (and with scope for only an incredibly short running line) later on? As per this thread: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/project-for-short-heritage-railway-beside-busway-dunstable.17281/

 

Not that that necessarily reflects badly on anyone else involved with the scheme of course.

 

Interestingly I understand the track that the open wagon at Wheathampstead station now sits on was recovered from the Luton to Dunstable section of the line.

[009 micro modeller]

Moving slightly to the east and into GER territory, the Buntingford branch would have been an interesting one (as would Elsenham & Thaxted in Essex). Not sure of the effect on other heritage railways though.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

8 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Interestingly I understand the track that the open wagon at Wheathampstead station now sits on was recovered from the Luton to Dunstable section of the line.

Well, there's a thing. It's a short walk for me to go see; haven't been to (actually through) Wheathampstead station these past near 60 years.

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

While I don’t necessarily doubt the seriousness of the original proposal, didn’t it all get slightly ridiculous (and with scope for only an incredibly short running line) later on? As per this thread: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/project-for-short-heritage-railway-beside-busway-dunstable.17281/

 

Not that that necessarily reflects badly on anyone else involved with the scheme of course.

While I personally can't see the appeal of a line in that location, I seem to remember that there was one individual (very vocal on certain on-line forums and with a particular preserved multiple unit obsession, often telling owners what they should be doing with them) associated with it who probably put off more many serious supporters.

[ianmianmianm]

I do like this concept. I did at one point many years ago seriously consider a layout based on the Epping to Ongar line but assuming it had been retained and developed by the LTM as a working venue for operable underground stock. 

 

My current micro layout is a Spanish tram layout that takes it's inspiration from the short lived La Coruna tramway - https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/the-bitter-end-la-coruna-tramway-finally-closed/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1bHYqqL1Z5t0cTNBA9lX7D9nTOftmY-fBgROX6ZW5Sb1hoAp5GNsTyfMA_aem_ATUNmOU9PeikUXXWrUr1XRU2_vGXrts5IcHxoWVv46hfjahmUTkZN9edzZxlf6_3-JkceNMHHQstwyGzYmXVK2Ya 

 

the real life Spanish version of all those "heritage tramway" layouts we see. There's also Birkenhead that historically has had some very eclectic trams although is now about to become more locally themed in terms of its fleet. 

[009 micro modeller]

9 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

I do like this concept. I did at one point many years ago seriously consider a layout based on the Epping to Ongar line but assuming it had been retained and developed by the LTM as a working venue for operable underground stock. 

 

My current micro layout is a Spanish tram layout that takes it's inspiration from the short lived La Coruna tramway - https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/the-bitter-end-la-coruna-tramway-finally-closed/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1bHYqqL1Z5t0cTNBA9lX7D9nTOftmY-fBgROX6ZW5Sb1hoAp5GNsTyfMA_aem_ATUNmOU9PeikUXXWrUr1XRU2_vGXrts5IcHxoWVv46hfjahmUTkZN9edzZxlf6_3-JkceNMHHQstwyGzYmXVK2Ya 

 

the real life Spanish version of all those "heritage tramway" layouts we see. There's also Birkenhead that historically has had some very eclectic trams although is now about to become more locally themed in terms of its fleet. 

The Epping idea sounds interesting. La Coruña should make an interesting layout with perhaps some interesting scenery as well, going off the photos in that article.

[009 micro modeller]

Reading about the Potomac Eagle Scenic Railroad in the US the other day, I notice it is effectively an excursion operator (unsure on how commercially-focused it is) running on what is otherwise a freight-only branch (and I think in this case the physical infrastructure itself is publicly owned, though at state rather than federal level). In the context of this thread I’ve sometimes wondered whether something similar would work in the UK. A scenically interesting freight-only line that springs to mind is the one to Boulby on the North Yorkshire Coast, though from reading about that line it appears part of the line is actually owned by the mining company (although in a UK context that might actually be easier for a tourist/heritage excursion operator in terms of having stock to appropriate standards etc. than operating over the national railway - see Appleby Frodingham for instance). Going back to the OP I don’t know whether such an operation might have had an affect on the NYMR. The original pre-preservation Derwent Valley Light Railway tried something similar. In a UK context I think it would really need to have involved an industrial or private line or taken place more recently though.

[Ben B]

One I'm working on for my first O layout (mainly so I have somewhere to run my Dapol Austerity when it arrives!) is a what-if preserved railway in Dudley, set in the slightly confusing tangle of industrial branches which once existed on the outskirts.

 

Where I grew up, in Gornal, was on the trackbed of the Gibbons Railway, an industrial branch off an industrial network.  The Pensnett Railway (Earl of Dudley's Railway) had a branch from Round Oak Steelworks (in Brierly Hill) down to Baggeridge Colliery, Himley, and Ashbourne Marina via a loco-worked incline.  From the base of the Barrow Hill Incline started the Gibbons Railway, a short, climbing line up to a foundry at Dibdale Road; the line had its own Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 tank locomotives, "Gibbons" and "Emily", and exchanged traffic with the Earl of Dudley's Railway and also with the nearby GWR via their line from Kinswinford to Wolverhampton via the EoD connection near Himley.  When I found out the trackbed of the Gibbons line, closed pre-War, actually ran under our front garden, I decided I wanted to build a line based on it; in fact a footbridge went from right under our house, spanning the line under our garden, according to old maps.

 

In reality of course it's all gone now, barring a short length of the trackbed near the Himley Road which is a footpath down to the Barrow Hill Incline.  Much of the old industrial network and the GWR lines are footpaths, there's a mothballed line into the Pensnett Trading Estate, and (finally!) Dudley has rail back in the form of the under-construction Metro extension and Light Rail factory, regular rail having stopped in the 1990's.  But in my imaginary world;

 

The Gibbons line built a branch to serve the top end of Lower Gornal village in the early 1900's, terminating in a small, simple station with goods shed near St.James Church (my Scout group was based here when I was little), and whilst the line operated as a light railway, it carried through goods traffic on behalf of the GWR.  Surviving the war as a freight-only line, the Gibbons Railway was absorbed by the Earl of Dudley's Railway/Pensnett Railway, with the Dibdale Foundry supplying machine parts to Baggeridge Colliery and Round Oak Steelworks, with coal from the NCB at Baggeridge going the other way.  When Baggeridge Pit closed in the 1960's and the Pensnett Railway connection to it via Barrow Hill Incline closed, the Gibbons line continued to the ex-GWR who maintained their mainline connection via the Pensnett Trading Estate.  It had all closed by the early 1970's but a preservation group acquired the ex-Gibbons line as a home for a small collection of industrial locomotives, in alliance with the Black Country Museum and Birmingham Science Museum.  In reality the Black Country Museum were very railway-averse, but I figure this preserved line would give them scope to widen their preservation efforts to railway stock.

 

By the present day; the Dudley Railway has a 'main line' from the foot of Barrow Hill Incline (now a popular footpath and cycle way, as in reality) up to Gornal St.James Station, with loco facilities in the old Dibdale Foundry, which itself is a working museum.  A little-used branch continues from the Barrow Hill terminus in the direction of the old Gornal Town GWR Station, where the trackbed of the ex-GWR line is met; in this reality, the Midland Metro absorbed the line from Kingswinford to Wolverhampton via Himley, Pensnett and Gornal, meaning trams regularly serve Gornal on this route, interchanging with the preserved railway on Bank Holidays and summer weekends.  The former spoil-tips around the Gibbons line have now been replaced with the Milking Bank housing estate which exists as-in reality, just with a railway line running through the middle of it, making this a very urban preserved railway (with all the subsequent trespass and vandalism problems this would entail) though with a countryside stretch at one end.

 

In character, then, it's very much a West Mids equivalent to the Middleton Railway, with industrial tank locomotives and diesel shunters working short trains with custom-made passenger stock.  I also like the idea that it would have provided a home for preserving locomotives from the real Earl of Dudley's fleet; the locomotives "Lady Morvyth" and at least one of the DE2 diesel shunters, all of which sadly went to scrap.  I figured it might also be a home for the smaller locomotives disposed of by the Severn Valley as they grew.

 

At present, beyond this backstory, what exists are boards with track for Lower Gornal St.James Station, an unbuilt AB 0-4-0 to be either "Gibbbons", "Emily", or "Lady Morvyth" and a few bits of stock.  It's very much a long-term project, but one I really want to build when I have the space.

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, Ben B said:

One I'm working on for my first O layout (mainly so I have somewhere to run my Dapol Austerity when it arrives!) is a what-if preserved railway in Dudley, set in the slightly confusing tangle of industrial branches which once existed on the outskirts.

 

Where I grew up, in Gornal, was on the trackbed of the Gibbons Railway, an industrial branch off an industrial network.  The Pensnett Railway (Earl of Dudley's Railway) had a branch from Round Oak Steelworks (in Brierly Hill) down to Baggeridge Colliery, Himley, and Ashbourne Marina via a loco-worked incline.  From the base of the Barrow Hill Incline started the Gibbons Railway, a short, climbing line up to a foundry at Dibdale Road; the line had its own Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 tank locomotives, "Gibbons" and "Emily", and exchanged traffic with the Earl of Dudley's Railway and also with the nearby GWR via their line from Kinswinford to Wolverhampton via the EoD connection near Himley.  When I found out the trackbed of the Gibbons line, closed pre-War, actually ran under our front garden, I decided I wanted to build a line based on it; in fact a footbridge went from right under our house, spanning the line under our garden, according to old maps.

 

In reality of course it's all gone now, barring a short length of the trackbed near the Himley Road which is a footpath down to the Barrow Hill Incline.  Much of the old industrial network and the GWR lines are footpaths, there's a mothballed line into the Pensnett Trading Estate, and (finally!) Dudley has rail back in the form of the under-construction Metro extension and Light Rail factory, regular rail having stopped in the 1990's.  But in my imaginary world;

 

The Gibbons line built a branch to serve the top end of Lower Gornal village in the early 1900's, terminating in a small, simple station with goods shed near St.James Church (my Scout group was based here when I was little), and whilst the line operated as a light railway, it carried through goods traffic on behalf of the GWR.  Surviving the war as a freight-only line, the Gibbons Railway was absorbed by the Earl of Dudley's Railway/Pensnett Railway, with the Dibdale Foundry supplying machine parts to Baggeridge Colliery and Round Oak Steelworks, with coal from the NCB at Baggeridge going the other way.  When Baggeridge Pit closed in the 1960's and the Pensnett Railway connection to it via Barrow Hill Incline closed, the Gibbons line continued to the ex-GWR who maintained their mainline connection via the Pensnett Trading Estate.  It had all closed by the early 1970's but a preservation group acquired the ex-Gibbons line as a home for a small collection of industrial locomotives, in alliance with the Black Country Museum and Birmingham Science Museum.  In reality the Black Country Museum were very railway-averse, but I figure this preserved line would give them scope to widen their preservation efforts to railway stock.

 

By the present day; the Dudley Railway has a 'main line' from the foot of Barrow Hill Incline (now a popular footpath and cycle way, as in reality) up to Gornal St.James Station, with loco facilities in the old Dibdale Foundry, which itself is a working museum.  A little-used branch continues from the Barrow Hill terminus in the direction of the old Gornal Town GWR Station, where the trackbed of the ex-GWR line is met; in this reality, the Midland Metro absorbed the line from Kingswinford to Wolverhampton via Himley, Pensnett and Gornal, meaning trams regularly serve Gornal on this route, interchanging with the preserved railway on Bank Holidays and summer weekends.  The former spoil-tips around the Gibbons line have now been replaced with the Milking Bank housing estate which exists as-in reality, just with a railway line running through the middle of it, making this a very urban preserved railway (with all the subsequent trespass and vandalism problems this would entail) though with a countryside stretch at one end.

 

In character, then, it's very much a West Mids equivalent to the Middleton Railway, with industrial tank locomotives and diesel shunters working short trains with custom-made passenger stock.  I also like the idea that it would have provided a home for preserving locomotives from the real Earl of Dudley's fleet; the locomotives "Lady Morvyth" and at least one of the DE2 diesel shunters, all of which sadly went to scrap.  I figured it might also be a home for the smaller locomotives disposed of by the Severn Valley as they grew.

 

At present, beyond this backstory, what exists are boards with track for Lower Gornal St.James Station, an unbuilt AB 0-4-0 to be either "Gibbbons", "Emily", or "Lady Morvyth" and a few bits of stock.  It's very much a long-term project, but one I really want to build when I have the space.

Sounds good, and I like the backstory. As a subject for a freelance model I quite like the idea of a former through station on a double track secondary line, now singled and with the National Rail service (a railcar/DMU shuttle, no points) terminating at one end of one of the platforms. The heritage railway element is then formed by a second track with run-round loop (possibly standard gauge, though maybe not physically connected, or perhaps narrow gauge). However, I’m wondering where I would set it/base it on and how I might increase the operational interest slightly.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Sounds good, and I like the backstory. As a subject for a freelance model I quite like the idea of a former through station on a double track secondary line, now singled and with the National Rail service (a railcar/DMU shuttle, no points) terminating at one end of one of the platforms. The heritage railway element is then formed by a second track with run-round loop (possibly standard gauge, though maybe not physically connected, or perhaps narrow gauge). However, I’m wondering where I would set it/base it on and how I might increase the operational interest slightly.

You're describing something very close to an RM "Plan of the Month" from the late '80s. 

It was a through station forming a junction with a minor branch line with an adaptable track plan intended to represent four decades (1950s-80s).  By the 1970s half the main line had closed and the residual DMU service remained through the junction to the terminus which was just a long siding.  By the 1980s, a preserved line has started operating from the junction and reopened the closed section of former main line.