Paignton - (Abandoned) Plan for Five-Platform Station (1930s)

[dynamicpunchline]

Hi all,

 

Apologies if this is not the most appropriate forum for this particular topic, but given this is my first post, I would be grateful for (some) leniency!

 

C.R. Potts' much-loved book on the Newton Abbot to Kingswear Branch mentions plans drawn up by the GWR in the 1930s to relocate Paignton Station to a site south of its present location, near the goods depot on Dartmouth Road.  Ultimately, this plan never came to pass because of the outbreak of WWII.  Based on the literature and discussions I have had with local historians, it would seem the plan was to expand the station to five platforms, as the existing location off Torbay Road was a 'bottleneck' for operations.  

 

Whilst all of this (in theory) makes sense, my question is why such a significant expansion would have been required, given the branch line was (is) single-track beyond Goodrington, and the goods depot seems to have been a fairly complex operation in its own right.  I have only been able to locate two images of the aforementioned goods depot, but it would seem from this image that it was built to enable road vehicles to deposit / collect goods at one end, whilst goods trains could be loaded from the other.  The second image I have found would seem to corroborate this view, and is also supported by a contemporary OS map.  I cannot, therefore, see how, or indeed why, a large station would have been constructed on / around this site.  

 

I would like to attempt to bring to life this abortive scheme, as I am familiar enough with the area to sketch an idea of how a larger station may have looked, and yet there are enough gaps in the available information about the scheme to permit a good amount of creative license.  However, I would like to make a relatively faithful construction of how the station might have looked / operated.  If anyone could shed some light on why such a station might have been desirable, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Cwmtwrch]

25 minutes ago, dynamicpunchline said:

C.R. Potts' much-loved book on the Newton Abbot to Kingswear Branch mentions plans drawn up by the GWR in the 1930s to relocate Paignton Station to a site south of its present location, near the goods depot on Dartmouth Road.  Ultimately, this plan never came to pass because of the outbreak of WWII.  Based on the literature and discussions I have had with local historians, it would seem the plan was to expand the station to five platforms, as the existing location off Torbay Road was a 'bottleneck' for operations.  

The 2014 edition, page 190 shows a [very poor] reproduction of a drawing, probably official (?), showing the relationship of the existing and proposed (1937) new stations. The latter would have occupied the combined sites of the two road goods yard behind the original station, the carriage sidings where the DSR station now is, and the existing station. It would have extended beyond a new bridge at Sands Road, but not as far as the Whitstone Road Bridge. The abolition of Paignton Goods and the introduction of the Zonal systen for freight traffic were significant factors in the building of the new goods station at Goodrington.

 

I only knew the line from 1960 onwards, but the weekend holiday traffic was then still heavy, so I suspect that the reasons in 1937 were basically down to line capacity. Even in 1960 Saturday traffic ran block and block both ways for a good part of the summer, with arriving Down trains forming a queue outside each station waiting for the train in the platform to move on. Giving Paignton [where many trains terminated anyway] two island platforms would have allowed trains to occupy each side of the Down island alternately, reducing waiting times elsewhere as well. Equally a starting train could occupy one side of the Up island without blocking all other Up trains. The fifth platform would also be useful for starting or terminating trains. This is speculation on my part, and may be wrong in detail, but something of the sort seems logical. Whether the work purely for holiday traffic would have provided an economic return can be questioned, but money would have been available in 1937 which was not available available post-war.

[The Stationmaster]

As the goods shed appears to date from the 1930s  and seems to have been some way south of the original goods shed it sounds to me more likely that it was re-sited to allow room for an enlarged station at and to the south of its existing site.

 

The new goods shed was built to the normal layout for a depot of that size - cartage (lorry) loading on one side of the deck (platform) as seen in the first image you linked and rail wagons dealt with on the opposite side of the deck.  Although some people didn't like the idea of a wide deck it did allow plenty of room for sorting inwards traffic to spots for delivery rounds and allow stuff to be kept in position for loading to rural rounds that ran at less than daily frequency.  What were known as 'stand trailers' (i.e the trailer part of an articulated lorry unit) could be used for town rounds and be pre-loaded ready to be picked up when the tractor unit came off its previous delivery.  It is possible that the large new goods depot was built with an eye to expanding road delivery, especially for Goods Smalls, but the 1938 edition of the GWR's 'Towns & Villages' book indicates that nothing radical had happened by then 

 

It looks as if a lot of alterations and expansion of facilities took place in the Paignton area in the early 1930s - the line between Paignton South and Goodrington was doubled in 1931 and a Down Loop was added in the following year.

 

After the goods facilities were removed I would think expanding Paignton station to 4 platforms (two islands) would have been relatively straightforward but some demolition of adjacent properties may have been needed and that would have taken time to progress before work could start.

 

Paignton station was by the 1930s very clearly in need of enlargement.  The July 1938 Service TT shows as many, if not more, long distance trains starting from there as originated at Kingswear.  Torbay was well established as a holiday area by the 1930s so the number of trains starting from Paignton was obviously justified but having only two platform faces must have been a problem because while there were local carriage sidings at Goodrington the train engines had to come down from Newton.  Thus a station with 4 through platforms would make sense although 5 sounds a bit odd as it would have been a lot more expensive that 4.

[dynamicpunchline]

47 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

The 2014 edition, page 190 shows a [very poor] reproduction of a drawing, probably official (?), showing the relationship of the existing and proposed (1937) new stations. The latter would have occupied the combined sites of the two road goods yard behind the original station, the carriage sidings where the DSR station now is, and the existing station. It would have extended beyond a new bridge at Sands Road, but not as far as the Whitstone Road Bridge. The abolition of Paignton Goods and the introduction of the Zonal systen for freight traffic were significant factors in the building of the new goods station at Goodrington.

 

I only knew the line from 1960 onwards, but the weekend holiday traffic was then still heavy, so I suspect that the reasons in 1937 were basically down to line capacity. Even in 1960 Saturday traffic ran block and block both ways for a good part of the summer, with arriving Down trains forming a queue outside each station waiting for the train in the platform to move on. Giving Paignton [where many trains terminated anyway] two island platforms would have allowed trains to occupy each side of the Down island alternately, reducing waiting times elsewhere as well. Equally a starting train could occupy one side of the Up island without blocking all other Up trains. The fifth platform would also be useful for starting or terminating trains. This is speculation on my part, and may be wrong in detail, but something of the sort seems logical. Whether the work purely for holiday traffic would have provided an economic return can be questioned, but money would have been available in 1937 which was not available available post-war.

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As the goods shed appears to date from the 1930s  and seems to have been some way south of the original goods shed it sounds to me more likely that it was re-sited to allow room for an enlarged station at and to the south of its existing site.

 

The new goods shed was built to the normal layout for a depot of that size - cartage (lorry) loading on one side of the deck (platform) as seen in the first image you linked and rail wagons dealt with on the opposite side of the deck.  Although some people didn't like the idea of a wide deck it did allow plenty of room for sorting inwards traffic to spots for delivery rounds and allow stuff to be kept in position for loading to rural rounds that ran at less than daily frequency.  What were known as 'stand trailers' (i.e the trailer part of an articulated lorry unit) could be used for town rounds and be pre-loaded ready to be picked up when the tractor unit came off its previous delivery.  It is possible that the large new goods depot was built with an eye to expanding road delivery, especially for Goods Smalls, but the 1938 edition of the GWR's 'Towns & Villages' book indicates that nothing radical had happened by then 

 

It looks as if a lot of alterations and expansion of facilities took place in the Paignton area in the early 1930s - the line between Paignton South and Goodrington was doubled in 1931 and a Down Loop was added in the following year.

 

After the goods facilities were removed I would think expanding Paignton station to 4 platforms (two islands) would have been relatively straightforward but some demolition of adjacent properties may have been needed and that would have taken time to progress before work could start.

 

Paignton station was by the 1930s very clearly in need of enlargement.  The July 1938 Service TT shows as many, if not more, long distance trains starting from there as originated at Kingswear.  Torbay was well established as a holiday area by the 1930s so the number of trains starting from Paignton was obviously justified but having only two platform faces must have been a problem because while there were local carriage sidings at Goodrington the train engines had to come down from Newton.  Thus a station with 4 through platforms would make sense although 5 sounds a bit odd as it would have been a lot more expensive that 4.

 

Very helpful - thank you both.  I don't actually own a copy of CR Potts' book, but a copy is available for reference in the local library - I cannot recall seeing plans in there so perhaps it was not included in older editions?

 

Best,

 

Harry

Edited May 18 by dynamicpunchline
Wrong comment replied to

[KeithMacdonald]

This is c.1910, well before the new 1930's Goods Shed, but it does show the space available for enlarged platforms. The foot bridge (FB) is a different style to the current one.

 

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

As the goods shed appears to date from the 1930s

1931.

[Rivercider]

It was also my understanding that the proposal for an enlarged station at Paignton was to alleviate congestion

of arriving down line services caused by long platform time as passengers and luggage disembarked. 

Delays caused by station overtime at Dawlish and Teignmouth was also one of the main driving factors behind the proposal  

to build the inland diversion route between Exminster and Newton Abbot.

 

cheers

[MPR]

47 minutes ago, dynamicpunchline said:

 

Very helpful - thank you both.  I don't actually own a copy of CR Potts' book, but a copy is available for reference in the local library - I cannot recall seeing plans in there so perhaps it was not included in older editions?

 

Best,

 

Harry

The plan is in the first edition too. It’s on p133.

[DCB]

At the end of the day the solution of extensive carriage sidings and a Turntable at Goodrington Sands made a lot more sense than a five platform station  Timetabling lagged behind reality,  a Thursday  afternoon Paignton Exeter Local would probably  disgorge three passengers and pick up seven in about one minute at Torre or Torquay, 

Doing the same on a Summer Saturday was not going to happen. more like five or seven  minutes.  Timetables were eased but nothing like enough to compensate for the extra station time .   The GWR made changes to reduce the delays the long down "excursion" platform at Teignmouth helped, moving the effective junction for Kingswear to Newton Abbott from Exeter reduced line occupancy  on ordinary weekdays, but Newton lost its ability to load and unload trains from both sides simultaneously  with  platforms each side of the singe tracks,   I feel theextra platforms at Paignton would not have had a cost effective effect on the traffic as Torquay and Torre handles so many passengers and would have made the passenger experience worse substituting foot bridge or underpass movements from island platforms for level access from side platforms. Getting hundreds of people in the correct order to board trains at Torquay and Torre would have been as big a challenge to getting Kingswear branch trains to Newton on time as platform issues and indeed  from the various books on the subject  it seems late arrivals of stock and locos needed for outgoing trains  was a big a cause of delays and the lack of a turntable at Paignton, only rectified after the coming of diesels  made a big negative contribution adding light engine moves from Paignton to Newton or down trains changing to locos running tender first ready to head back again right way round.  I think the 5 platfom statio would have been a major step sideways,  

[Cwmtwrch]

38 minutes ago, DCB said:

the lack of a turntable at Paignton, only rectified after the coming of diesels  made a big negative contribution adding light engine moves from Paignton to Newton or down trains changing to locos running tender first ready to head back again right way round.  I think the 5 platfom statio would have been a major step sideways,  

A turntable was installed at Goodrington in 1957 along with the new carriage sidings, and there was a turntable at Kingswear. There never was a turntable at Paignton under BR, and there would have been no point in installing a turntable after dieselisation. Apart from that there was a practice at peak times of locos running tender first working Down ECS from Newton Abbot before taking out their scheduled Up train. Similarly Up ECS would be worked tender first to NA by the loco from a previous Down arrival. By the time diesels arrived in any numbers summer Saturday holiday traffic was past its peak anyway.