German push-pull

[Taigatrommel]

Around my modelling period for Steinrücken, there was work carried out on the overhead which saw the regular 143 + dostos (inc DABbuzfa760 Steuerwagen) substituted with 219s and Halberstadts with Bybdzf482 Steuerwagen. Unless there was a particular reason for the double deck stock to work elsewhere, I don't really see why they would have drafted in stock from elsewhere as well as locos, short of incompatability between diesel traction and the dostos.

 

Now, I know Bybdzf482 can work with several types of loco- 112, 143, 218, 219 and 234 at the very least. But you just don't seem to see the ex-DR dostos with anything other than ex-DR electrics, ie 112, 114 and 143. So, I'd be interested to know how many types of push-pull control systems there are, and what locos and Steuerwagens are fitted with them. Likewise if there's an English publication that might detail such technicalities, I'd be keen to know so I can add it to my library!

 

Thanks

[NGT6 1315]

So, I'd be interested to know how many types of push-pull control systems there are, and what locos and Steuerwagens are fitted with them.

 

Well, there basically are the following systems in use here in Germany:

 

• the original control suite, now called "Konventionelle Wendezugsteuerung" or "KWS", using a 34- or 36-pole command cable - with the former Bundesbahn having had the 36-pole variant and the former Reichsbahn the 34-pole one,
• the more modern TDM system, called "Zeitmultiplexe Doppeltraktionssteuerung" (ZDS) for multiple working of two engines and "Zeitmultiplexe Wendezugsteuerung" (ZWS) for use with driving trailers, both utilizing the UIC data cable, and now having been developed into the "Zeitmultiplexe Mehrfachtraktionssteuerung" (ZMS) which allows for more than two engines to be working in multiple.

And a listing by class:

 

DR 34-pole KWS:

 

Classes 109 (nrs. 001-042), 112, 114, 142 (nrs. 001-022 and 100-196), 143 (most of the class), 201, 202, 203 and 204 (some of which but had it removed during refits), 219 and 228; all DR driving trailers plus 760, 776, 777 and 778 series double deck driving trailers.

 

DB 36-pole KWS:

 

Classes 110 (only "Crease"-bodied engines refitted from the 1990s onwards), 111 (with a few exceptions), 115 (renumbered "Crease" 110s), 120 (prototypes only), 139 (partially), 140 (from no. 757 onwards), 141, 143 (only a small number), 181 (never regularly used), 210, 211 (nrs. 008-063), 212 (nrs. 022-106, 232-331, 342-381), 213, 215, 216 (partially), 217 (except prototypes), 218, 220 (except prototypes); Karlsruhe type driving trailers, "Hasenkasten" driving trailers and Wittenberge type driving trailers rebuilt from Silberling stock.

 

ZWS:

 

Classes 101, 111 (except for fifteen engines), 112.1, 114, 120, 141 (nrs. 436-442), 143 (only engines also fitted with DR 34-pole KWS), 145, 146, 152, 182, 185, 186; 218, 219 and 234 (some refitted), ÖBB 1116 (nrs. 035-059) and 2016; all current driving trailers, except for Karlsruhe and "Hasenkasten" types as well as 777 and 778 series.

 

 

HTH

[Taigatrommel]

Hi Dominik, and many thanks for this. I see that a certain vehicles are fitted with two systems. So in theory the 219s could have worked with the usual stock!

 

Also, I've ballsed up the paint job on my 219, so I was wondering what else I could stick on the Halberstadt push-pull rake I have! My 204 is a possibility then.

[NGT6 1315]

Also, I've ballsed up the paint job on my 219, so I was wondering what else I could stick on the Halberstadt push-pull rake I have! My 204 is a possibility then.

 

I guess you could, but I don't think there were very many 204s left in passenger service by the time represented by Steinrücken - if at all. But of course you could use some modeller's licence here!

 

However, I'm going to ask a friend who I think may know this better than me, just to be sure.

[NGT6 1315]

Hello Rich,

 

one correction to my previous statement: The Wittenberge type driving trailers were created only in the 1990s - regardless of whether they are based on Silberling or Halberstadt stock. Therefore, while the Silberling based ones are fitted both for the DB KWS system as well as ZWS, the Halberstadt based ones are fitted only with ZWS. So, if the Halberstadt rake you mentioned comprises the Bybdzf 482, this would not have been compatible with the 204 in reality.

[Taigatrommel]

Oh well. Hmm, how do you think Bad Horn would look electrified?

[NGT6 1315]

I think you could give this a try, Rich. I don't believe it would look terribly wrong having a small station like Bad Horn on an electrified line - after all, the Teutoburger Wald stretches through the Bielefeld area, and this city (assuming it actually exists...that's the theme of a common gag over here ) is on the Hamm-Minden Railway, which is an important and electrified mainline.

 

By the way, regarding DR push-pull controls: Any coaches fitted with the necessary equipment will have a single "u" in their type designation. The DBbuzf type double deck driving trailers are one relevant example. Meanwhile, the "f" means that the driving trailer in question may also be fitted for ZWS, but does not have to.

[Taigatrommel]

Haha, the Bielefeld conspiracy! It's actually part of the backstory of Bad Horn, that the promoters originally planned a line from Bielefeld, but the Länder authorities persuaded them otherwise, and it ended up running from Paderborn...

[NGT6 1315]

Haha, the Bielefeld conspiracy! It's actually part of the backstory of Bad Horn, that the promoters originally planned a line from Bielefeld, but the Länder authorities persuaded them otherwise, and it ended up running from Paderborn...

 

Yeah, kinda hard to build a line from a city which does not exist, is it not?

[Taigatrommel]

I'm slightly worried about the company I keep. Mr45144 claims to have been there a few times. He must be one of them.

[NGT6 1315]

I'm slightly worried about the company I keep. Mr45144 claims to have been there a few times. He must be one of them.

 

In that case you should do as Agent Mulder does and not trust anybody .

[Taigatrommel]

Bumping this in the hope of further help...

 

This image shows a 234 with a refurbished ex-DR dosto (I assume a DBuz⁷⁴⁷) followed by Halberstadt Nahverkehrswagen. This has got me wondering if there was use of diesel traction with DABuzf⁷⁷⁸s, something I haven't seen any pictures of. I know 228s ran with DBmq^771/3/5/6, but if either 232 or 219 ran with them or DABuzf⁷⁷⁸ it would add some variety to Bad Horn.

 

Cheers!

[Supaned]

I think I've seen pictures of 202/204 with a DABuzf778 type driving trailer , but of course can't remember where.

 

Regarding other locos in push-pull mode , the early batch of 219s (up to 085 or so , will have to dig out the reference book to confirm) were built with the "standard" DR multi/push-pull system (the sort with the sockets that look like dinner plates on the buffer beams) , although I've never seen any evidence of them being used in push-pull service ,they were used in multi on D and IR trains. Later on , the 219s were fitted with ZWS which allowed them to work with Wittenberge type driving trailers , although not all of the class were retro-fitted.

 

Some of the 234s were fitted with ZWS on conversion , and so could work with the Wittenberge driving trailers ,again not all were fitted , and I can look up a list of which particular examples were if needed.

 

So , in answer to your question , a 202/204 would be the best bet....

[Taigatrommel]

Thanks Supaned. I've seen pics of 202s on dostos but I couldn't tell whether it was a DBmq or just a regular DBmu.

[Supaned]

From memory , I think it was a mintgreen/white trailer with the original front window arrangement.

 

I can't ever recall seeing an Ex DR V100 with a Wittenberg driving trailer , they usually just ran round their trains , or often ran in top and tail mode (Berlin Lichtenburg - Teifensee , Saalfeld - Lobenstein were both worked this way)