NEW PRODUCT - 4mm MODERN IMAGE FIRE APPLIANCE

[jennarivo]

Disappointed at it being a Dennis as this cuts out all of the Scottish Brigades.

 

 

actually HIFB (Thurso) runs with 2 Sabres V reg

[jennarivo]

Hiya

 

Do you have a picture of the prototype you have decided on?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

 

Jim hopefully come monday i will have made the final decision, there were a number of different chassis configurations produced by dennis and i intend picking something generically popular if that makes sense, as i'm not going to geographically commit to a brigade

[jennarivo]

Disappointed at it being a Dennis as this cuts out all of the Scottish Brigades.

 

Re the branding, I think you are right not to make specific brigades and I would suggest you leave of any "Titles" as well, for a couple of reasons;

 

• Although some fire brigades called themselves "fire and rescue services" prior to it, it was not until 2004 (England and Wales) and 2005 (Scotland) that they officially became such. So for some areas the Fire and Rescue was changed at that time. (As of course were badges)
• There were variations in how the service title was applied, different lettering & colours etc. Some continued to use a wooden background for many years.

Given the above I would suggest that the two basic livery options plus a range of decals would be the best choice.

 

In the meantime I will wait for the follow up Scania please

 

John

 

 

cheers for the info John

[Phil R]

Hi Jim,

 

Yes , some of the first ones I saw were W suffix regs

 

Jim,

 

West Midlands Fire Service had V-X and A-F reg (1980-88) Dennis pumps in and around Birmingham. Can supply more info if you wish.

Typical example here:- http://www.fire-engine-photos.com/picture/number20713.asp

 

Shaun,

 

Sabre is a good choice as a generic model, believe Wiltshire had the first in 1994, quite a few brigades had "stripes" on the early vehicles and "battenburg" on their later deliveries. A firm called BW Models supplies transfers for different UK brigades.

Again if I can help with any info please contact me.(Emergency vehicle interest since childhood).

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Guest jim s-w]

Thanks Phil

 

As that one is a Solihull one I must have passed it countless times! Funny how plain they looked back then isnt it?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Baby Deltic]

I suppose the model people would want next depends on the area and era. Lots of choices, here's my list of possible candidates:

 

Dennis - Sabre, Rapier and Dagger would be good for mid 90's onwards. Square cabbed Rapier TF202/203 from early to mid 90's, and RS/SS/DS range for the late 70's to last decade. Late 70's would also see Dennis R series and the last Dennis D's built. Most of the F series appliances would be phased out by the early 80's. From the late 60's to the early 70's a lot of brigades bought Dennis DJ pumps (DJ - Dennis D series/Jaguar). Early 50's to late 60's would be Dennis F series. F8, F12, F24, F26, F36, F38, F48, F101 for London Fire Brigade, F108 emergency tender etc.

 

Bedford very popular with brigades right through from the the 50's up to the late 80's, especially the RL, TK and TKG in its various incarnations by the likes of HCB and Carmichael.

 

A Ford D series pump kit has been done in white metal. Ford Cargo chassis used on prime movers and water tankers.

 

Dodge K series and later Renault/Dodge appliances such as the Locomotors bodied pumps used in London would be a good bet.

 

Volvo FL6 for mid to late 80's onwards. Good scope for a model due to popularity and longevity.

 

Shelvoke and Drewry WX and WY chassis appliances were built for brigades such as Essex, London and Surrey from the late 70's until the mid 80's, when Shelvoke SPV ceased building fire appliances.

 

The 50's and 60's would probably be the hardest era to tie down for a definitive model because there were so many manufacturers plying their trade in the fire market at the time. Commer, Karrier, Leyland, Austin, Dennis, Bedford, Albion etc to name but a few. Not forgetting the old favourite of many brigades - the AEC Mercury 100' turntable ladder.

 

Mercedes don't seem to have a very large market for pumps in the UK, but quite a few specials have merc chassis. MAN seem to be gaining a small foot hold, especially with hook lift prime movers.

 

I know Scania is now taking the lion's share of the market, but I don't particularly like them, personnally.

[sulzer27jd]

 

 

I know Scania is now taking the lion's share of the market, but I don't particularly like them, personnally.

 

Is this just from a visual point? I suspect if you have driven them you would appreciate just how good they are.

 

John

[Baby Deltic]

Is this just from a visual point? I suspect if you have driven them you would appreciate just how good they are.

 

John

 

Yes, purely aesthetic, although I remember reading in a newspaper article that Essex had problems with theirs going too slow when they had just turned out due to engine management software. I also heard reports about crew members feeling sick, and suspension alterations being made. I just think that fire engines nowadays look to garish. They also all look and sound the same. To my mind, the last classic was the Dennis RS with the Perkins 640 V8. You could tell one of those was coming a mile off.

[Phil R]

actually HIFB (Thurso) runs with 2 Sabres V reg

 

Also a Sabre XL at Ballater - livery same as the rest of the Grampian fleet - unusual!

 

http://stephenpotter.fotoblog.co.uk/p56403087.html

 

 

Thanks Phil

 

As that one is a Solihull one I must have passed it countless times! Funny how plain they looked back then isnt it?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

It is, West Midlands still have a traditional red body and cabside stripe, which is quite subdued compared to some other brigades.

 

I suppose the model people would want next depends on the area and era. Lots of choices, here's my list of possible candidates:

 

Dennis - Sabre, Rapier and Dagger would be good for mid 90's onwards. Square cabbed Rapier TF202/203 from early to mid 90's, and RS/SS/DS range for the late 70's to last decade. Late 70's would also see Dennis R series and the last Dennis D's built. Most of the F series appliances would be phased out by the early 80's. From the late 60's to the early 70's a lot of brigades bought Dennis DJ pumps (DJ - Dennis D series/Jaguar). Early 50's to late 60's would be Dennis F series. F8, F12, F24, F26, F36, F38, F48, F101 for London Fire Brigade, F108 emergency tender etc.

 

Bedford very popular with brigades right through from the the 50's up to the late 80's, especially the RL, TK and TKG in its various incarnations by the likes of HCB and Carmichael.

 

A Ford D series pump kit has been done in white metal. Ford Cargo chassis used on prime movers and water tankers.

 

Dodge K series and later Renault/Dodge appliances such as the Locomotors bodied pumps used in London would be a good bet.

 

Volvo FL6 for mid to late 80's onwards. Good scope for a model due to popularity and longevity.

 

Shelvoke and Drewry WX and WY chassis appliances were built for brigades such as Essex, London and Surrey from the late 70's until the mid 80's, when Shelvoke SPV ceased building fire appliances.

 

The 50's and 60's would probably be the hardest era to tie down for a definitive model because there were so many manufacturers plying their trade in the fire market at the time. Commer, Karrier, Leyland, Austin, Dennis, Bedford, Albion etc to name but a few. Not forgetting the old favourite of many brigades - the AEC Mercury 100' turntable ladder.

 

Mercedes don't seem to have a very large market for pumps in the UK, but quite a few specials have merc chassis. MAN seem to be gaining a small foot hold, especially with hook lift prime movers.

 

I know Scania is now taking the lion's share of the market, but I don't particularly like them, personnally.

 

Great list, I'd add ERF as well - the classic ERF "Simon Snorkel" could be found all over the place from the late 60s to the early 90s.

 

All the best

Phil

[Baby Deltic]

Also a Sabre XL at Ballater - livery same as the rest of the Grampian fleet - unusual!

 

http://stephenpotter.../p56403087.html

 

 

 

 

It is, West Midlands still have a traditional red body and cabside stripe, which is quite subdued compared to some other brigades.

 

 

 

Great list, I'd add ERF as well - the classic ERF "Simon Snorkel" could be found all over the place from the late 60s to the early 90s.

 

All the best

Phil

 

Good point, Phil. I forgot the good old ERF 84PF chassis used on numerous HP's, pumps and ET's.

[Baby Deltic]

If someone was to ask me what the best model would be for a 'bang up to date' layout, I would say either a Dennis or Scania pump, of the JDC bodied type. JDC are John Dennis Coachbuilders. Many brigades now use an 'off the shelf' body from JDC, the main variation now being livery, insignia and type of blue roof, tail and grill lights. The 'battenberg' livery has now gained favour over the 'stripe' livery in many cases because it is more striking and visible. The Dennis Sabre and Rapier are pretty much identical externally. The Rapier uses a standard 'ladder' type chassis, whereas the more expensive Sabre is based on a stronger tubular chassis construction. There are two cab types on the Sabre - ML and XL. The XL has and extra long crew cab with an extra side window. AFAIK John Dennis was a member of the family who formed the original Dennis company. For Scania I would think the 94D to be the most common pump chassis type.

[Barry J]

Time Tunnel Models are showing details of a new casting of a modern style Fire Appliance on what looks like a Scania chassis announced by Oxford Diecast.

[Trains4U]

Just a quick update,

 

Jennarivo, I would seriously consider whether this is still viable?

Oxford Diecast have announced two modern image fire appliances, which will probably retail for no more the ??15 at the most.

 

Whilst your aims are laudible, I'm not convinced you could match them on cost, and whilst the quality of your model may be superior, I do not believe you would make sufficient sales over the Oxford models to cover costs and make a return for yourself and to invest in new product.

 

Think very carefully before spending any money. It is a very tough market, with announcements from an established manufacturer that will duplicate your intended project, and undoubtedly beat it to market at a lower price (Pre production models have already been produced)

 

The distribution network for oxford is much bigger than you could possibly achieve in a short timescale, so those who may have otherwise searched out your product will not now do so, as they will find what they want in their local model shop or online retailer.

 

Sorry to put a downer on this, but I think the commercial realities are that it would be very difficult to launch into the marketplace with this particular product line, and it would be a shame to see you lose out because of it.

[jennarivo]

Just a quick update,

 

Jennarivo, I would seriously consider whether this is still viable?

Oxford Diecast have announced two modern image fire appliances, which will probably retail for no more the ??15 at the most.

 

Whilst your aims are laudible, I'm not convinced you could match them on cost, and whilst the quality of your model may be superior, I do not believe you would make sufficient sales over the Oxford models to cover costs and make a return for yourself and to invest in new product.

 

Think very carefully before spending any money. It is a very tough market, with announcements from an established manufacturer that will duplicate your intended project, and undoubtedly beat it to market at a lower price (Pre production models have already been produced)

 

The distribution network for oxford is much bigger than you could possibly achieve in a short timescale, so those who may have otherwise searched out your product will not now do so, as they will find what they want in their local model shop or online retailer.

 

Sorry to put a downer on this, but I think the commercial realities are that it would be very difficult to launch into the marketplace with this particular product line, and it would be a shame to see you lose out because of it.

 

Many thanks for that, and yes i think you're right, i have know about this for some time now after speaking with Paul Slade from Fire Brigade Models although i didn't realise just how far it had gone, until i read the Oxford Diecast Globe newletter at Xmas.

The worst thing is that, i've had this idea in my head for years and just never committed myself to it, which is a pity as i feel now that if i had gotton it off the ground earlier then i would probably of done ok from it.

 

i'm now in 2 minds over what to do next as i would really like to produce some sort of model, however, there aren't many uncatered for products

that spring to mind that would possibly have the selling power of a fire engine.

 

the best thing about it is that very shortly people (me included) will have these models available to them, which was all i really wanted

 

so where to from here, who knows

 

thanks for all the support tho

[Guest jim s-w]

How about the first wedge shaped Transit? Loads of potential backs, plenty of PO liveries and (compared to a fire engine) quite small and simple. Theres the old MBF kit and I think Beacon did an appoximation but thats your lot.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[bmg]

so where to from here, who knows

 

 

How about a 1:76 ambulance with opening rear doors to reveal a detailed interior? That might sell. Think of all those crash scene or building fire cameos.

 

Make it detailed enough, from the mid 80?????s and under ??25 and I?????ll put my name down for one.

 

Something like this one maybe: http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2325

 

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[wamwig]

Personally I think that with everything that Oxford/Classix/Corgi/Base/EFE produce the best thing for small, cottage, manufacturers to do is to concentrate on those slightly less popular subjects that the major maufacturers are, probably, unlikely to go for. Yes Corgi and Oxford have done a Green Goddess but there is always the 4x2 version, all the other RL based vehicles and the Commer Q4 variant, as well as the faithful old Austin K2 ATV. I know BW Models (and others) have done most of these, they are only an example, but for the right niche there could be the market out there. Might be worth a bit more research anyway? And I agree with BMG, ambulances might be one way to go?

 

Just my 2p's worth

[(The) Youth]

I don't think a small comapany could compete with

 

http://goldstarstockists.net/live/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/128_181_184_334/products_id/32563?osCsid=da978ce201c107bef7ff012186a94cd8

 

IMO its not really worth it now

 

I'd go for something much more - different leyland road runner ???

[RANGERS]

There's a couple of ambulances available, at a price, but they do look amart and they are a bit different....now who's going to detail the interior?!

 

1980s

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-76-HONG-KONG-AMBULANCE-FORD-TRANSIT-9425A_W0QQitemZ110493745931QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_DiecastVehicles_DiecastVehicles_JN?hash=item19b9f0c30b

 

1970s

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-76-Hong-Kong-AMBULANCE-Ford-1970s_W0QQitemZ400101762182QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_DiecastVehicles_DiecastVehicles_JN?hash=item5d27ec6486

 

or bang up to date

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-76-Hong-Kong-MERCEDES-BENZ-AMBULANCE_W0QQitemZ400102714678QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_DiecastVehicles_DiecastVehicles_JN?hash=item5d27faed36

 

BW also do a BMC/ Morris LD ambulance kit

[5XP]

If someone was to ask me what the best model would be for a 'bang up to date' layout, I would say either a Dennis or Scania pump, of the JDC bodied type. JDC are John Dennis Coachbuilders. Many brigades now use an 'off the shelf' body from JDC, the main variation now being livery, insignia and type of blue roof, tail and grill lights.

 

You may be already aware of this but the main reason they all look the same is the fact that most FRS's are now going through the Firebuy initiative for vehicle and equipment procurement to fall in line with standardisation across the different FRS's so in years to come they will all look the same.

This is goverment meadling as usaul as they steadily build up to regional rather than county brigades, just like the big white elephant of the regional control buildings across the country that have been empty for a few years costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands in maintenance and security and are years late and billions over budget and will never save any money but loose jobs and possibly lives...........:icon_thumbsdown2:

[Baby Deltic]

You may be already aware of this but the main reason they all look the same is the fact that most FRS's are now going through the Firebuy initiative for vehicle and equipment procurement to fall in line with standardisation across the different FRS's so in years to come they will all look the same.

This is goverment meadling as usaul as they steadily build up to regional rather than county brigades, just like the big white elephant of the regional control buildings across the country that have been empty for a few years costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands in maintenance and security and are years late and billions over budget and will never save any money but loose jobs and possibly lives...........:icon_thumbsdown2:

 

This is probably the reason why Essex County Fire & Rescue Service are talking about phasing out major rescue tenders.