Guest TomTank Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Evening all I was reading that Stanier's Two Rebuilt Jubilees dimensions were near identical to the 2 Rebuilt Jubilee's. So my question is, would a Hornby Patriot be a simply renumbering job into a Rebuilt Jubilee? Answers on a postcard Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 According to Essery and Jenkinson in the LMS Locomotive series, the two Jubilees rebuilt with the bigger boiler, 5735 Comet and 5736 Phoenix were almost indistinguishable from the standard LFB Jubilee. Can't find any pics to hand to confirm this, but I know the RCTS have a cracking book out at the moment on the Jubilees that it might be worth shelling out for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 From memory there were differences in the smokebox saddle area, but otherwise very similar to a rebuilt Patriot but not particularly resembling a long firebox Jubilee at all (bigger boiler)! Sorry Al, I think you've got a wire crossed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 From memory there were differences in the smokebox saddle area, but otherwise very similar to a rebuilt Patriot but not particularly resembling a long firebox Jubilee at all (bigger boiler)! Sorry Al, I think you've got a wire crossed. If I didn't have the book here in front of me, (vol 5, page 107, second para) I would completely agree Alan! The fact that the bigger boiler was fitted, yet doesn't show externally is strange. As for the saddle, there were early and late types on standard Jubes, which was it most similar to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Some differences re the bogies Wheelbase 3 inches larger on rebuilt Jubliees (6ft 6in) Wheel diameter 1/2in larger on rebuilt Jubliees (3ft 3 1/2in) Rear axle centre to axle centre of front driving wheel 1 1/2in shorter on rebuilt Jubliees (5ft 9in) Front zxle centre to buffer face 1 1/2in shorter on rebuilt Jubliees (4ft 10 1/4in) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 A few comparison pics I found. I have included the links to their web pages, they are reproduced for educational uses only and remain the respective copyrights of their owners. From this page: Jubilees Website http://www.jubilees.co.uk/images/photos/45735b.jpg This is a rebuilt Jubilee, "Comet". And from this page: Steam Railways Link http://www.mech-eng.leeds.ac.uk/menprr/45529.jpg A rebuilt Patriot. And from this page: Jubilees Website - Achilles http://www.jubilees.co.uk/images/photos/45697a.jpg A Jubilee. The smokebox saddle appears different, but the boilers look very similar for both the Patriot and Rebuilt Jubilee. Other than that, at least aesthetically, I am struggling to see much differences between the two classes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The rather clumsy smokebox saddle has already been commented on. The biggest difference between the Rebuilt Patriot and Jubilee was the cab. The Patriot retained the shallow cab, the base of which was not in line with the tender base but above it. The footplate angle below the cab was in line with the tender. Therefore one would have to have to fit a new cab off an unrebuilt Jubilee so that the cabs base was in line with the tender and the footplate angle was below it. The cab roof was slightly flatter on top of the Jubilee cab but could be ignored in 4mm. Patriot bogie was 6' 3" wheelbase. Jubileee 6' 6", however, I think the model has a underscale w.b. anyway. Nothing to worry about as no one has commented on this bogie or that fitted to the Scot. Bachmann got it right however. Two top feeds in use....a flat top and an arced top. They got swopped between the two rebuilt Jubilees so you need to watch the date of your model. If memory serves me correctly, 5735 had a rivetted tender and the other welded.. The model below was made from an elderly Bachmann loco.I had to lower the cab by cutting a chunk out of the front plate so it would sit lower on top of the firebox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TomTank Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Thanks from those Simon nice to see some clear comparison shots. Out of interest, whats different about the smoke box saddles on the Rebuilt Jubilee and Rebuilt Patriot, can't really tell I do think, for OO purposes, a renumbered Patriot could be passable on a layout. The only think I have noticed is that Comet had a snap head rivets on the tender, so looking at Hornby's Patriots, which have counter sunk rivets, I could either model Phoenix from a Patriot, and Comet if the tender was swopped with a Scot. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Oh the joys of the LMS Reboilered, reboilered, rechassied, reboilered Claughton. The two first 2A boiler reboilerings of Patriots had the shallower cab side sheets mentioned, but the later ones I believe all had the same depth side sheets as the two Jubilees reboilered with the 2A boiler. As such the Hornby 2A boilered Patriot model which has the deeper side sheets can equally well represent a 2A boilered Jubilee, if the assortment of other small dimensional discrepancies can be winked at. And I think those discrepancies can be winked at because in creating class 7P from the assorted junk recovery recycling of previous efforts in the Claughton/Scot/Patriot/Jubilee line, all manner of slightly differently dimensioned parts could be found in what was operationally treated as a single class. The defining feature is the 2A boiler, all the other tackle hung around it largely incidental... My single example in model form of the final LMS express 4-6-0 development is 'Phoenix', renumbered from a Hornby Rebuilt Patriot, chosen specifically for that name: constant rebirth from the flames of previous destruction being singularly appropriate to this saga, don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The two first 2A boiler reboilerings of Patriots had the shallower cab side sheets mentioned, but the later ones I believe all had the same depth side sheets as the two Jubilees reboilered with the 2A boiler. I repeat every Patriot, rebuilt or otherwise, had shallow cab side sheets, a legacy of the unrebuilt Patriot. The Jubilee had deeper cab side sheets, a legacy from the unrebuilt Jubilee. As such the Hornby 2A boilered Patriot model which has the deeper side sheets can equally well represent a 2A boilered Jubilee, if the assortment of other small dimensional discrepancies can be winked at. Of course individuals can wink and this and take liberites with that, but I'm attempting to give the correct information first so that others may make their own minds up on how far they are prepared to go towards accuracy. Rebuilt Patriot cab. Note how running plate is in line with tender running plate....... Rebuilt Jubilee cab is deeper. Note how running plate angle is below the tender running plate...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Looks pretty conclusive to me there, Coach. The cabs don't match in the side sheet height due to the running plate height - you can see this very clearly in the lining out of the side sheets, in Coach's photographs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TomTank Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Thanks for all the feedback chaps Thanks for the info Coach, definitely a difference in heights of cabs, and quite clearly can be seen. I think this is a project I will leave then, I'm really no good at kitbashing so I think a Rebuilt Jubilee is something I will pass on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Patriot bogie was 6' 3" wheelbase. Jubileee 6' 6", however, I think the model has a underscale w.b. anyway. To be very pedantic the first 53 Jubilees built at Crewe had the same 6'-3" wheelbase bogie as the Patriot (using bits salvaged from Claughtons). ASM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 To be very pedantic the first 53 Jubilees built at Crewe had the same 6'-3" wheelbase bogie as the Patriot (using bits salvaged from Claughtons). Correct. Although I am not sure how much of the Claughton bogies was salvaged seeing as these locos had double radial trucks, which were not bogies in the real sense. Maybe the sideframes were salvaged. The first 12 Patriots had double radial "bogies". The LNWR bogie wheels were re-used and I always find such details interesting. The Patriots ran with LNWR, Fowler and Stanier bogie wheels, all different in character and the food of pedanticiteous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkmouse Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The Patriots ran with LNWR, Fowler and Stanier bogie wheels, all different in character and the food of pedanticiteous. Not to mention the driving wheels! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 Out of interest, whats different about the smoke box saddles on the Rebuilt Jubilee and Rebuilt Patriot, can't really tell The difference is the strengthening webbing on the casting. Vertical strips down the sides of the saddle under the curved bit that supports the boiler. Obviously mainly an LMS issue as the smoke deflectors hid it in BR days. I haven't got enough photos to be sure on this but the whole casting on the Jubilee looks a touch heavier to me as well. Al, it's a case of resembling neither of the original Jubilee saddle types, although closer to the single one. Then there is the matter of the driving wheels...... but we can't go there. Thanks Larry for the cab height info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 It was a smokebox saddle with an additional sleeved packing. It reminds me of Kenny Everett's jowled Frenchman Marcel Whey... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 Don't you mean Marcel Wave Coach??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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