richard60098 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Hi, Few questions regarding building the kit up/finishing it are the wheels 10.5 in size i need to get? Also were can i get that brake wheel or similar which sits in the middle of the lower part of the chassis? Regards Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium drjcontroller Posted August 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2011 There was a small piece in the July issue of Model Rail about a manufacturer called P & P Models who were working on both a new kit and an RTR version of this iconic wagon. I emailed them on 18 July asking for further information but not heard anything. Anyone know anything about this ? Douglas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Hello Douglas, I can partly answer your question. P+P Models is formed of myself, Paul Harrison and Peter Midwinter and we are in discussions with a model manufacturer to produce a OO rtr model of the ICI and John Summers hopper wagons. At this present time we are taking enquiries for the model, so apologies if you have not had a reply as the email address given is Peters so I will chase that up with him when I see him at weekend. I have submitted a lot of material to the manufacturer to work with including detailed photos and copies of the works drawings that will allow them to make a CAD model etc. and I no doubt I will be taking more detailed measurements and photos soon to help further. The wheelset are just over 3 ft diameter so you would be best to use 12mm 3-hole disc wheelsets. As for the handbrake wheels, on my old High Peak resin kits I found that by using the clothing press-studs and using the blank or male part of the stud and filling in the small holes you could make a reasonable representation of the hand wheels. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Hi Paul, Many thanks for the gen and info on the 12mm wheels/hand brake wheels this is all sounding great rtr models of the fantastic wagon and also Kevs High Peak kit available this will fill that big gap in north west modellers rolling stock which i'm sure for yrs many have wanted a rake of these ICI hoppers i used to go out in force to photograph them just wish now i'd aquired a video camera so i had my own footage of the train two! Thanks again Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium drjcontroller Posted August 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2011 Thank you Paul for responding, glad to hear the news and look forward to hearing more in due course. I'm sure you both have a lot on your respective plates at present. If the manufacturer gets it right, I am sure a great many modellers will owe you a debt of gratitude. A rake of these wagons will look magnificent and my credit card is shivering with anticipation. Thanks again Douglas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Yes, I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked if there is a model available for these wagons when I have been exhibiting. And so I gave up and made a handout sheet to give to anyone who asked me about the wagons detailing the known models for all scales - see earlier in this thread for that info. I know not every modeller will be able to afford or have the space for say a full rake of say 16 hoppers with an 8F, but a shorter rake of 8 or 10 wagons would look equally as good. So with all the information and knowledge that I have in my possesion and the challenge of getting even more detailed information, I intend to make this model as good as I can. So I think I will soon be crawling and climbing over hoppers to obtain lots of new measurements! I will be seeing Peter trains12 this weekend so hope to discuss the model in more detail and what we want to achieve. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Hi all, I'm just about finishing my kit of the ICI of now, does anyone know which colour would be most suitable for there mid 90's scheme? There were those couple of creamy white ones in the rake but i'll model those at a later date just want to paint this one up for now. Also the bogies supplied are needing work to make them look something like the real versions does anyone know a manufacturer who does the correct style of bogies or something close to wat they look like on the hopers? Regards, Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Hi Rich, you could start with Humbrol matt 64 for the light grey and then move to a dark brown shade - Humbrol used to do a Chocolate shade in matt might have been no. 170 I can't remember now but its long been discontinued. The raised small ICI letters can be white if fresh or dirty yellow white if traffic worn, but virtually all the letters were removed in 1990/91 and only a handful of wagons escaped and retained their letters right to the end. As for the bogies you can just modify the Ratio plastic plate frame bogie parts by adding the top capping to the bogie with some thin styrene strip. You could try and change the moulded round holes to square cut-outs with rounded corners. The axlebox covers would need filing off and a representation of the BR Timken roller bearings put in place. You can get whitemetal ICI plate bogie kits from Appleby Model Engineering for £4.50 a pair though the price may have gone up now with the recent increase in raw materials. You only need the Plate frame bogies if you are modelling 1990s era wagons of course. I can take some photos of my own original HPC resin kits if you wish and show you what I did to mine. HTH Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Hi Paul, Many thanks for the info and paint tips, i would like to modyfy the bogies or fit new plate bogies on and as you've stated yes i clocked the square axle boxs straight away and thought they need replacing with correct round design timken versions to make the wagon look the part. I'm modelling 90's so they would be the plated versions fitted and the logo's removed as i've done on mine already thou there was still a mark left after they'd been ripped off so i may still add some kind of resemblance that the ICI lettering was there! And yes any pics would be very helpfull at this stage if you can please Many Thanks Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hi Rich, ok I will dig the wagons out and take some photos asap and post them on here. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Hi Rich, ok I will dig the wagons out and take some photos asap and post them on here. Cheers Paul Hi Paul, thankyou if you can please just finished filling and sanding/neating up my resin body last night put it to one side for a bit as there was a lot of work needed on mine to get it up two undercoat standard but it looks ok now so gona undercoat it and then get a letter sent to appleby model engineering po boxs address as want these white metal plate bogies decided i'm not gona muck around trying to sort the ration included ones out! Many thanks Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Hi Paul, I've just been looking thru your ICI book regarding which hoppers had ladders fitted? Now it seems the transferred over hopers from summers/bsc had them fitted but i've noticed the higher sided ones do aswell! So am i good to fit etched ladders to the high peak caster kit and it as a number which had these fitted? Also i fancy modelling the lower sided hopper with ladders two as then i can make the top neater and straight with a nice plasticard rim rather than the chunky top in the resin mould like mine has. Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 nice shot.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/6136456631/in/contacts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hi Paul, I've just been looking thru your ICI book regarding which hoppers had ladders fitted? Now it seems the transferred over hopers from summers/bsc had them fitted but i've noticed the higher sided ones do aswell! So am i good to fit etched ladders to the high peak caster kit and it as a number which had these fitted? Also i fancy modelling the lower sided hopper with ladders two as then i can make the top neater and straight with a nice plasticard rim rather than the chunky top in the resin mould like mine has. Rich. Hi Rich, yes the 13 ex John Summers hoppers all retained their ladders at each end upon transfer to ICI. As the ex Summers wagons were put in the Roadstone pool of wagons working from Tunstead to Dean Lane, Collyhurst Street and Portwood alongside the existing wagons, at some point I believe it was decided to fit ladders to the original ICI wagons in the same pool to allow the staff at the stone terminals to check whether the load had been fully discharged. Of the wagons I noted in their final years there were 41 wagons that had sloping ladders at one end of the wagon only for the ICI wagons. There is a difference in length and height on the actual hopper bodies between the ICI and Summers wagons and hence different angles on the end slopes. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hi Paul, thankyou for the info in your book it shows them literally facing downward no angled ladder close up shots from wat i can see any chance of a pic showing wat sort of angle i should have the ladder at and also is there a ladder at each end and does one slope etc... wana try and get this first hopper right including ladders two! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The ICI wagons had one sloping ladder at one end of the wagon whereas the John Summers wagons had one vertical ladder at each end of the wagon - although some of the ladders were later lost/removed from both wagon types. All ladders are on the right hand side when looking at the wagon end on. The attached photos should hopefully show you what I mean - BLI 19072 shows the ICI style of sloping end ladder with eight rungs Here are two ex John Summers wagons showing the vertical end ladders with six rungs on BLI 19161 and 19154 both of which are preserved. Hope these help. I will post some photos of the 4mm models next. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Ok here are some photos of the models of the hoppers that I have taken. First photo shows three models, l-r Appleby Model Engineering; My own plasticard body on High Peak Casters (HPC) underframe; HPC kit. All have had brass T section end stays fitted to replace the original whitemetal or plastic ones provided with the kits. The two HPC ones run on modified Ratio bogies. Appleby Kit - one piece body with whitemetal chassis parts, buffers, bogies, etched large letters and lost wax brass coupling/brake pipe coupling My scatchbuilt plasticard body on HPC resin underframe with turned brass buffers - not a bad attempt to make some use of some spare HPC underframes that I was given. Letters made from something like 0.5 or 0.75mm square brass and bent to shape. HPC kit - mark three version with lightweight body detailing as above version. One piece body with cast small letters, resin underframe parts. Plastic divider added inside hopper body. Hope these help, give me a shout if you need anymore info. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hi Paul, thankyou your a star this is everything i need to do mine, its nice to see the kit built wagons up close and all the different types + your scratchbuilt versions very good SIR, mine won't look anywhere near as good but i hope to get better the more i do which ever kit i buy and bits i use these are and always will be my fav wagon so these pics are a valuable piece of info for not just me but everyone whos tackling the kit/modyfying the high peak version. I can now add my etched ladders and undercoat it all just awaiting a reply, letter from appleby now with how much the cast plate bogies are then once i finally get them i can complete the wagon and add a load for weight thats something in need to look into aswell my local pet shop had perfect sized fish tank white stones but not anymore he only has coloured now so will need to find something other than standard ballast to affix in each wagon? Many thanks again for taking the time to upload and add these superb shots i'm very happy now:) Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I noticed at Woking an anouncement from Roxey Mouldings of the release of the John Summers hoppers in 4mm. I spoke to Dave from Roxey at some length, and inspected the first test etch (in 4mm) and bogie castings. I understand this is a reduction of an existing 7mm kit. The hopper body is a one piece fold up etch that looked very promising - it hadn't been soldered together so I could inspect the closeness of fit - very good! There seemed to be a few niggles with some of the half relief rivits being over-etched, as you might expect from a 7mm>4mm reduyction, and a few of the bits looked a bit fiddly - I would guess that an RSU would be required to get the best finish. The Whitemetal bogies were really crisp - I understand that he also has bogies for the ICI version of the hopper, and if there is sufficient demand, that version may be produced in the future. Delivery should be in October 2011. Kits will cost £36.00 each plus £2.00 UK P&P per order. There will be a discount for bulk purchases on application. 4F19 John Summers Bogie Hopper wagon kit www.roxeymouldings.co.uk Dave has emailed me a photo of the 7mm version of the kit which is attached Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Hi Jon, this looks very promising i found this exact pic on a google search at weekend and have been looking at it since thinking WOW thats nice! I shall have to have a go at one of these thou my soldering skills are poor atleast i can try and see how i geton it saves the many hours/days of filling and filing i've just had to do on the resin kit! So not long to wait i'll be definately emailing him regarding the kit + bogies aswell if i get anymore resin kits they'll need them! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridwatcher Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Can confirm that there will be vac brake stuff available from Dave at Roxey to update the unbraked Summers wagon to ICI spec if required......just hoping that my Rats will be able to pull them or (prototypically) will keep exploding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Eye yes i heard of Dave that hes now taken delivery of the summers wagon, so thats good will be nice to see one finished in oo gauge with the vac gear on. And exploding rats ay? That sounds interesting looks like 60081 was trying to be a rat two a few yrs ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridwatcher Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Eye yes i heard of Dave that hes now taken delivery of the summers wagon, so thats good will be nice to see one finished in oo gauge with the vac gear on. And exploding rats ay? That sounds interesting looks like 60081 was trying to be a rat two a few yrs ago Think it was largely a traction motor problem with the 25s. Full power for long periods and clearly a load way beyond what they should have been hauling! What the Buxton boys did to the (generally unburstable) 20s is another matter altogether! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Hi all, Has anybody built and finished a roxey mouldings oo gauge john summers hopper yet? I've just got mine but i don't think i'll be able to build it with it been etched brass thou i really wanted one so bought it anyone know a man who commision builds etched brass kits who i could send it over to? Cheers, Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecgtheow Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You could try MARC models, who have just finished building 10 of these from the Uncommon Kits 4 mm scale kits. the Roxey kits loook very similar & maybe the proprietor of Uncommon Kits sold them to Roxey? I would post some photos, but have tried & failed. An added advantage is that MARC Models have produced the transfers for John Summers. ecgtheow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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