kandc_au Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hi all I have come to what I think is the conclusion of the track planning stage of my layout and am now moving forward with building the baseboards and have a view to start laying the track soon. I am modelling a BR southern region 70s / 80s era suburban main line station with branch and depot in 00. I had planed to use Peco sl code 75 rail with cut webbing to improve the look and Peco points but now I have had a crisis of confidence. This morning I was looking at my old class 52 Western on my work bench and the bogies are just screaming “OUT OF SCALE†at me. So has anyone out there ever built there layout then regretted doing it in 00 and wished they had done it in EM or P4. I haven't read all the responses, but changing to either EM or P4 isn't going to solve the size of the bogies that I can see. If you can change the bogies to finer ones for either EM or P4 you should be able to for OO. That said, Hand laying track is not hard....if I can do it anyone can. The bottom line is if you have seen any of the scales and you particularly like them, you are in the prime position to start rather than getting a layout running and then saying you should now change because of........ Think it through before starting is all I can suggest. khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 There is no point in putting 4mm scale models on HO track when better alternatives are available. Adding to that, there is no point in running re-wheeled plastic coaches with thick overscale window pillars on those better alternatives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuntybunt Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Maybe I should clarify a bit, I am not asking which guage is best. I am well aware that this depends upon many factors, time , money, patience, etc. I am just trying to workout which would be best for me. I can see that great looking layouts can be built on 00, essentially it all comes down to the attension to detail (thanks Roger440 for the link that track work looks great, I'm a bit unclear as to weather all the track was hand built or just the points). I'm sure a highly detailed 00 layout with well built track, correct line side detailing and well weathered can look as good as a less well finished P4 layout I haven't read all the responses, but changing to either EM or P4 isn't going to solve the size of the bogies that I can see. If you can change the bogies to finer ones for either EM or P4 you should be able to for OO. Khris I should have been more clear, its not so much the bogies that looked wrong but the wheels that are set within them about 2mm behind the break shoes. Hmmm, thread going off course a bit maybe...? My personal view (because, let's face it, that's what it comes down to - there really is no right and wrong way to go about this hobby) is that I can see the visual improvement with EM or P4 track, but is the improvement enough to warrant the extra time needed to build it? Or can I get to, say, 80% of that look by using Peco track and making a good job of the ballasting, etc? There is also a 'contamination' issue too - does such-and-such a layout with EM or P4 track look better because it uses EM or P4, or does it look better because invariably a modeller who uses one of these track standards also puts extra effort into the rest of the layout as well? It’s a generalist viewpoint, but I don’t recall many EM or P4 layouts that had Skaledale buildings and out of the box, unweathered rolling stock - there's usually lots of high quality buildings and decent rolling stock too. The track is just part of the overall picture, and Peco track, in the right setting, can look perfectly acceptable. Like others have mentioned, it’s all a matter of time and compromise – which bits of the layout overall am I willing to put more time and effort into and which bits can I live with ‘as is’? This really is the nub of the issue. Hand built track work can look great in any gauge the problem comes when you put a loco on it so if you are going to hand build all the track it may as well be done in EM or P4 rather than 00. However much as I like the look of hand built track do I have the time to build all the track work. So my initial thoughts were either to use Peco and cut the webbing to space the sleepers or to use SMP scaleway ready built track in EM for the lines and SMP kits for the points, there is however a problem with this in that some of the mainline track on my layout should have concrete sleepers so I would need to use Exactoscale fast track. Very confused now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I am just trying to workout which would be best for me. The only way you will find out is by getting involved with others, or by yourself, doing a little project in each. I did just that, but got more involved with a group in EM, but ultimately found it better in OO. As I said before because of time, and convenience, but what I did find a little annoying was the small degree of pretentious elitism amongst some of those involved with the other versions of 4mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 SMP track......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 SMP track......... Nah, thats the real thing! Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I can see that great looking layouts can be built on 00, essentially it all comes down to the attension to detail (thanks Roger440 for the link that track work looks great, I'm a bit unclear as to weather all the track was hand built or just the points). I'm sure a highly detailed 00 layout with well built track, correct line side detailing and well weathered can look as good as a less well finished P4 layout Absolutely yes. 00, EM, P4 it doesnt really matter, what matters is that the overall scene is consistant. As Larry says no point P4 track with out of the box RTR coaches. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Nah, thats the real thing! Ed with those chairs? Same on both sides of the rail? You have looked at real track haven't you? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I've never built an 00 layout (not since I was about 9 anyway) - when I came back to the hobby in my 30s I went straight to P4 because I liked the authentic appearance of the pointwork. Most of the stock I envisaged at the time was only available in kit form so it was going to have to be built anyway, and I enjoy building track. I'm afraid I just cannot see the difference between P4 and EM track on any layout and will never be convinced anyone can. Jim S-W has already replied to this. Crossings and flangeways are really very obviously different in P4, but I will accept that the gauge of well made, ballasted and weathered plain track in 4mm can sometimes be difficult to distinguish, especially at low angles (which the photos presented so far have been ). Mind you, when a train comes along and you see the wheels ... I'm not that used to seeing P4 or EM. Admittedly, both are much better, but I still don't think they quite catch the look of the prototype. Very intrigued by that comment - would you care to elaborate? There is also a 'contamination' issue too - does such-and-such a layout with EM or P4 track look better because it uses EM or P4, or does it look better because invariably a modeller who uses one of these track standards also puts extra effort into the rest of the layout as well? It might, or it might not - depends on the interests of the observer, the overall consistency, the viewing angle and lots of other things. For sure, a layout in EM or P4 isn't automatically better than a layout in 00, far from it. Widnes Vine Yard for example shows what can be done in 00. In P4, St Merryn is a very fine layout (and get the book whatever gauge or scale you work in - something for everyone wanting to model as authentically as possible) but when those Bachmann Bulleid coaches appear it certainly grates with me; but they know that and there are perfectly rational reasons (time, mostly) why they haven't yet been improved. Some will not care as long as the operation and signalling is correct. Answering the OP, what you need to do is consider what is most important to youand go from there. If pointwork appearance is everything to you, and you have the time (either on your own or maybe with a group) then try P4. If you have less time, less sensitivity to trackwork and want to get something running then 00 made to look as good as it can be is the solution (but those flangeways! ). EM as a halfway house works for many people. I model (slowly) in P4, mostly with groups of other P4 modellers because it's a fun way to do it and the journey is all part of that. I do also get impatient sometimes though, hence my plans for a 00 roundy-roundy to watch trains on - but this will have no pointwork in the scenic section, and no station either, so I will just watch moving trains on plain track at a low angle on this one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2011 Absolutely yes. 00, EM, P4 it doesnt really matter, what matters is that the overall scene is consistant. As Larry says no point P4 track with out of the box RTR coaches. Cheers Jim That's it, isn't it. The whole issue summarised in a few words. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Absolutely yes. 00, EM, P4 it doesnt really matter, what matters is that the overall scene is consistant. As Larry says no point P4 track with out of the box RTR coaches. Cheers Jim I agree with you too Jim, Having (a high) overall consistency in all aspects of a layout is the thing. Even as an 00 modeller, I read the MRJ regularly for inspiration. I marvel at the very high standards achieved by the contributors who model to EM or P4 standards. I'd rate you as in the top 1% of 4mm modellers Jim. Have some sympathy for the rest of us! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hi there, Part of the decision has to be what you plan to do on your layout. Up and down plank with 4 points -then it's got to be P4. If you want to be able to actually run trains, then it's EM. I've had the privilege to operate a number of top notch EM layouts. On one, the riposte to any sneering from the P4 armchair brigade was to reverse a 40 van train across a set of facing pointwork. "Try that in P4" was the invitation from one of the layout's builders. It stands to this day. You can't scale down the laws of physics. The weight of rolling stock would have to be vastly greater than we use in 4mm scale for it to work like the real thing. A loaded 10T van might gross out at, say 15 tons. How do you scale that? 15*(1/76*1/76)= 0.0026 tons, or 5.8lb. Most modellers measure their 4mm scale wagons in ounces. I know I'm going to get shreddeed, so I'll put on my tin hat and take cover. Regards, Vernon As a P4 modeller and ocassional layout exhibitor I find that the disparaging remarks tend to come from 00 enthusiasts, whereas the EM and P4 brigade seem to be more aware and appreciative of the attempts to produce a more accurate model. with those chairs? Same on both sides of the rail? You have looked at real track haven't you? Cheers Jim Good question. How many off us look at the real thing these days. For those that model pre-war or pre-group we have to refer to photos. It's a little ironic that the RTR industry supplies increasingly better and more accurate locos, rolling stock and buildings, yet trackwork seems to somewhat ignored. Quite a few layouts that I have seen have "inaccurate" modelling; probably because the builder wasn't aware of what was correct, rather than their ability to model it. Often an idea of what a model railway should look like will be based on other layouts that the magazines show, rather than what the real thing is/was like. While I enjoy modelling in P4 - it's the journey that is more exciting than reaching the destination for me - if I were setting out again and wanted to build a reasonable size layout, I would probably opt for EM. However, I would want to use the approach and many of the techniques that I've learned through doing P4. But then, if I hadn't done P4, I probably wouldn't have learned what I have - a catch 22 situation. My advice would be - irrespective of the gauge you choose - aim for the best standards that you can achieve, don't believe that anything is beyond you, and seek guidance and advice from modellers whose work you like or admire, they will invariably be happy to help. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Nah, thats the real thing!... Ahem. No fishplates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 .....Converting RTR was never easy...... The world record for converting a modern Hornby ventilated van to EM is 12.5 seconds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 ......How many.....look at the real thing these days............. A sample of the posts in this forum would be a reasonable indicator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 There is no point in putting 4mm scale models on HO track when better alternatives are available. Oh absolutely. Just remind me, where is it we can study your modelling? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Jim S-W has already replied to this. Crossings and flangeways are really very obviously different in P4, but I will accept that the gauge of well made, ballasted and weathered plain track in 4mm can sometimes be difficult to distinguish, especially at low angles (which the photos presented so far have been ). Mind you, when a train comes along and you see the wheels ... Only between OO and P4/EM but not between EM and P4. The differences are just too small with plaine sight and at any reasonable viewing distance. The world record for converting a modern Hornby ventilated van to EM is 12.5 seconds. So that is pretty irrelevant when what is clearly being talked about was steam RTR locos - the vast majority of which still defy conversion without resorting to building a completely new chassis. At which point I think that is a whole new game and you might as well build the whole kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Oh dear, I don't think this is leading us anywhere. It now looks more like modellers of their respective gauges taking a pop at each other. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Come on chaps lets play nicely and get back on topic now shall we. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 It now looks more like modellers of their respective gauges taking a pop at each other. I thing people are reading it wrong. Adapting steam-outline locos to P4 is not a straighforward game of dropping in new wheels, and Kenton is merely stressing this point. Far better to get people to realise the possible pitfalls of idealism without the necessary skills rather than let them drop into an elephant pit.....only to climb out and sell up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 The OP question was So is EM worth the time and expense of the track an re-wheeling all the rolling stock or should I just get on with Peco and enjoy running the layout? Any advice would be much appreciated. and I wonder if Ron hasn't summarised the situation very well indeed Answering the OP, what you need to do is consider what is most important to youand go from there. If pointwork appearance is everything to you, and you have the time (either on your own or maybe with a group) then try P4. If you have less time, less sensitivity to trackwork and want to get something running then 00 made to look as good as it can be is the solution (but those flangeways! ). EM as a halfway house works for many people. I model (slowly) in P4, mostly with groups of other P4 modellers because it's a fun way to do it and the journey is all part of that. I do also get impatient sometimes though, hence my plans for a 00 roundy-roundy to watch trains on - but this will have no pointwork in the scenic section, and no station either, so I will just watch moving trains on plain track at a low angle on this one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What you say is absolutely true Larry But the op was asking about a layout set in the 70s/80s. Kenton, are you seriously asking me to believe that you can't tell if the gap between check rails and stock rails is obviously less then the rail head or obviously more? Show me an em frog and I would struggle to tell if it's em or oo. Show me a p4 one and it's obvious it's p4. No ones relative judgement is that bad. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuntybunt Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Oh dear, I don't think this is leading us anywhere. It now looks more like modellers of their respective gauges taking a pop at each other. Colin Yes I was hoping this wouldn't decent into gauge fighting. My original post related to whether I could justify the extra time, effort and cost involved in either EM or P4 rather than 00 and while this thread has provided some useful information, and a few useful incites, I am still undecided. So in order to come to a conclusion I have ordered some Exactoscale concrete and wooden fast track sleepers and I will order a point kit from SMP and give point building a go and re-wheel one of the 33s then put this next to some Peco with another 33 and see if I feel the time and expense was justified or whether I should just spend the money in the pub! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Pete the Elaner, on 17 January 2011 - 18:14 , said: I'm not that used to seeing P4 or EM. Admittedly, both are much better, but I still don't think they quite catch the look of the prototype. Very intrigued by that comment - would you care to elaborate? EM looks better than OO; P4 better than EM. NO doubt about that. As Jim pointed out, check rails are compromised in any 4mm scale other than P4. But there is still something which, to me, just doesn't look absolutely spot on. I couldn't put my finger on it...until now, I think: I believe it is simply the profile of the rail head. Prototype rail has a curved top & only a certain part of it remains shiny. Even as it wears, the shiny bit is not parallel with the sleeper top. When we clean our rails, most of us usually clean right across the rail head, because we use cleaning prodcuts with a little softness in order not to damage the rail & also to give our stock every chance to make good electrical contact with the rail head. This is necessary but does slightly alter the appearance of the track from ultimate authenticity (our unachievable holy grail). A shiny check rail also adds another inaccuracy. In that case a rusty, overgrown piece of trackwork would probably look spot on in P4? Does anyone have a pic of such an example they could post? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I believe it is simply the profile of the rail head. Prototype rail has a curved top & only a certain part of it remains shiny. Even as it wears, the shiny bit is not parallel with the sleeper top. When we clean our rails, most of us usually clean right across the rail head, because we use cleaning prodcuts with a little softness in order not to damage the rail & also to give our stock every chance to make good electrical contact with the rail head. This is necessary but does slightly alter the appearance of the track from ultimate authenticity (our unachievable holy grail). A shiny check rail also adds another inaccuracy. In that case a rusty, overgrown piece of trackwork would probably look spot on in P4? Does anyone have a pic of such an example they could post? Not any of the gauges that are under discussion. But to me it does highlight some of the points that you are making. I have seen layouts with rusty check and wing rails. An exercise probably better kept to home rather than exhibition layouts. Some people use phosphor bronze rail to try and acheive the desired effect. For any one who does not recognize the trackwork in the photo it is by Gordon Gravett. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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