dube Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I`ve got a few of these old wagons which airfix / Hornby produced on a 10 ft steel wheelbase and having just read some mineral wagons were made with 10 ft wb steel chassis was wondering if there was a prototype ? Always thought that airfix / Hornby stretched the body to fit their generic 10 ft chassis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Length over headstocks will be the issue. Minerals were build 16'6 long not 17'6 and that will probably be the issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I`ve got a few of these old wagons which airfix / Hornby produced on a 10 ft steel wheelbase and having just read some mineral wagons were made with 10 ft wb steel chassis was wondering if there was a prototype ? Always thought that airfix / Hornby stretched the body to fit their generic 10 ft chassis Your thoughts are correct that these wagons are stretched. As Craig says, most post 1923 Coal/Mineral wagons were 16ft 6in over headstocks on a 9ft wb chassis so the Airfix / Hornby / Dapol wagons are NBG (to me at least). In the 1970s (ish) BR rebuilt some Palbrick wagons as 16T steel mineral wagons which did produce a 17ft 6in wagon on a 10ft wb chassis but they were a small number compared to the 9ft/16ft 6in type. Have a browse through Paul Bartlett's site for pics and details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I think I'm right in saying that a few wooden PO coal wagons were built on steel underframes, but as Craig says, they would still be 16'6 long not 17'6. The liveries are generally nicely done though, obviously they'll never be as authentic as Bachmann's current products but depending how fastidious you are, they can still look quite good when weathered. I think Sparky has a few on his Penhydd layout. Alternatively you could ditch the bodies and use the chassis for kit or scratchbuilt wagons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I'll just add my own tuppence worth: Whilst I know of no 7-plank minerals that were built on a 10'WB underframe [and especially not one with 4-shoe morton brake gear as per the Airfix originated model] there is a prototype for the 17'6" long body,as per the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby model.. Plate 52 in the book 'Private Owner Wagons,volume 2' by Bill Hudson shows 'Rossington' no.2054,a 7-plank mineral with end door with a length over headstocks of 17'6" on a 9'WB steel underframe with the normal [for minerals] independant brake gear each side,the photo is dated circa 1930,although the author believes the wagon to be a pre-1923 design. This is pretty much an exception to the rule,however,but it does prove that the R-T-R wagon body is useable if fitted to a different suitable steel 9' WB underframe [Cambrian do one] also the body has angle iron end uprights,as used with steel underframes,and so would make an interesting variation in a rake of the numericaly vastly superior 16'6" bodied minerals.. B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37079 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Further to the 17'6'' mineral wagon as mentioned above, I seem to recall a picture in Iain Rice's 'Detailing & Modifying RTR Wagons' of a non-convertible 7 or 8 plank coke wagon with what looks suspiciously like a 10ft wheelbase (although conversely this wagon appears to be 16'6'' long). There are no definitive measurements given for the wagon, but this in combination with the Rossington wagon has made me wonder if against all odds, Airfix got it right? I know the overwhelming balance of probability might suggest otherwise, but unlike the original Mainline range, I can't think of another stretched, mis-shapen or otherwise duff wagon body in the original Airfix range. As with the so-called 'LNER loco coal wagon' that is actually a pretty accurate rendition of an obscure PO design, it would be nice to think that someone could turn up evidence to show the Airfix 7-plank is based on a real vehicle. Intriguing... Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Further to the 17'6'' mineral wagon as mentioned above, I seem to recall a picture in Iain Rice's 'Detailing & Modifying RTR Wagons' of a non-convertible 7 or 8 plank coke wagon with what looks suspiciously like a 10ft wheelbase (although conversely this wagon appears to be 16'6'' long). There are no definitive measurements given for the wagon, but this in combination with the Rossington wagon has made me wonder if against all odds, Airfix got it right? it would be nice to think that someone could turn up evidence to show the Airfix 7-plank is based on a real vehicle. Intriguing... Mike If they'd based it on an original wagon i'd have thought they'd have painted one accurately and not all as liveries for normal minerals.. Pretty sure its all down to them wanting to use one chassis. They only did a handful of chassis - 10ft morton, 10ft clasp, 12ft for minerals and tanks and the brake vans along with a couple of the oddities. Its probably a good thing they were wrong in hindsight as we ended up with better modern toolings along with the steel mineral (which you can't say was real I don't think as it was long with top doors which I don't think ever happened in the new builds). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Pretty sure its all down to them wanting to use one chassis. I'm squarely with Craig on this, particularly as the chassis concerned is a steel frame and the wagon pictured in the book is on a wooden one. Not only that, but the likelihood of them copying a maverick PO design from amongst the hundreds of thousands that did conform to RCH norms is prrr - retty slim. Mr Rice's logic for the WB being 10ft is based on rail chairs being usually spaced at 2'6 intervals (the wagon's wheels are each conveniently right over a chair) - I dont know enough about track to know how reliable that assumption is? Like judging buffer lengths, it's very difficult to tell from photos but the WB *could* be longer than 9ft - the axleguards look slightly nearer than usual to the headstocks and the pushrods could be at a slightly shallower angle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I might have to have a look at this Bill Hudson shot at the club.. Sleepers are closer together near the joints on 24 sleeper 60ft panels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I seem to recall a picture in Iain Rice's 'Detailing & Modifying RTR Wagons' of a non-convertible 7 or 8 plank coke wagon with what looks suspiciously like a 10ft wheelbase (although conversely this wagon appears to be 16'6'' long). There are no definitive measurements given for the wagon I haven't got the book mentioned,so can't check the photo, but it does sound as if the wagon referred to could be a coke hopper,which IIRC had 10'6"WB underframes..but these are different wagons entirely from the minerals. I'd have to go along with Craig and Ian in the belief that Airfix just 'stretched' the dimensions of an RCH mineral to fit their 17'6" chassis.It was probably just a coincidence that there happened to be an example of a real 7-planker with a body that length.. Although a probably bit pointless following the introduction of the Bachy range of R-T-R minerals,has anyone succesfully shortened the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby 7-plank body to 16'6"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted June 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2011 I'd have to go along with Craig and Ian in the belief that Airfix just 'stretched' the dimensions of an RCH mineral to fit their 17'6" chassis. I believe Bachmann have stretched the body of the BR cattle wagon to fit the "correct" chassis, so anything is possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I believe Bachmann have stretched the body of the BR cattle wagon to fit the "correct" chassis, so anything is possible. Doesn't the cattle wagon have an 11ft wb or something custom so its more a case of someone cocking up to get the length of that a bit off? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I believe Bachmann have stretched the body of the BR cattle wagon to fit the "correct" chassis, so anything is possible. If you look at the Wagon Diagram Books on the Barrowmore site, you will see that all BR-built Cattle Wagons were 18ft 6in over headstocks with an 11ft wb. I havn't compared Bachmann's BR Cattle Wagon with the drawing but assume, in this day and age, that is correct. The Hornby Dublo / Wrenn / Dapol version was (is) stretched to fit the Grain Van chassis (wich was too short anyway) and the earlier Mainline / Bachmann version of the LMS Cattle Wagon was shrunk to fit a 10ft wb chassis. Whoever decided to put a 'Blue Ribband' sticker on that devalues all the other 'Blue Ribband' wagons in the range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Cattle wagon out by a foot (4mm) at 19ft 6 long, see: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11970-Bachmann-8t-cattle-wagon/page__st__25 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Oops you're right, Craig. Having carried out a ‘dimensional analysis, on the Bachmann model, it does scale up at 11ft wb which is fine but, to my surprise and disappointment, 19ft 6in over headstocks. It obviously looks the part but I can’t think of any other vehicles which could use a 19ft 6in chassis with an 11ft wb. My signature used to say “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.†I should read it more often. Anybody got any ‘umble pie? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 It was interesting to read this discussion from long ago. Yesterday before I'd read this , I started modifying an old Hornby Beatties 7 planker. I wanted to see if I could successfully shorten the 10 ft wooden chassis to 9 ft and remove the 'orrible moulded brake gear. I have succeeded in doing this quite neatly . I also shortened back the headstocks flush with the solebars, so I could then make new headstocks. Even sitting the body on the shortened chassis the whole thing looks so much better. I still have work to do finding from the parts box replacement brake gear etc. I have done some photo's , and will post them later when I can get my missus to help me with them. I hope this will be of some interest. Maybe I should have posted on 'Modifying RTR models' I will do that if this goes unnoticed. Rob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Oh I see I am already on Modifying and detailing RTR stock 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dominion Posted April 4, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2019 I would love to see how you modified those as I was just looking at some of mine yesterday thinking I needed to change them somehow. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 One Day when my missus and I have solved the mysteries of posting photo's here , you will see the results of my work. Rob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 I did btw reply to Tom by PM re modifying the wooden chassis Hornby wagons. He is the only person to show an interest, Rob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I am sure (and can assure you) there are more people showing an interest in this subject if you would care to post the photos for all to see. We have just been waiting politely/patiently for you to master the art of posting them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 28 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said: I am sure (and can assure you) there are more people showing an interest in this subject if you would care to post the photos for all to see. We have just been waiting politely/patiently for you to master the art of posting them. I do feel guilty about the photos, I will get my missus to help later and see if we can get them posted. I realise it brings the whole thing to life .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I've managed to put some photos on. Not the best, but the best I can do at the moment to show my progress on the Beatties wagon. I found amongst my bits and pieces some white metal buffers that looked correct . Still have find some brake gear, and then a repaint, and lettering... So hopefully there will be more pictures soon.... Sorry it took ages Rob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 The first picture after shortening the chassis and fitting new buffer beams. The second is the chassis cut in half, I then with the use of a small steel engineers square and scalpel trimmed the cut ends back to size removing 4mm in total before glueing the halves back together. I found my surprise the the rather soft plastic responded well to the use of Mekpak. The third picture shows that I successfully carved away the awful lumpy moldings that represented brake gear. I was quite pleased with my efforts , as nothing really shows ... The Swan Morton scalpel does a good job... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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