AndyB Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Hi, all, A few weeks ago I took the decision to rip up my previous layout and build somthing simpler and hopefully someting better. The layout will be set in the Highlands and resides in my garage. Track is now laid and today I got my prized Class 37 running. I'm using a simple Bachmann DCC controller. The problem is that some combinations of point direction cause shorts. The points are Electrofrog. should have thought of this beforehand but didn't. I'm hoping someone might take a look the track diagram below and suggest where I should create breaks in the track? I'd really appreciate it as progress so far has been great and I want to keep up the momentum. I'm assuming that slots cut at strategic places in the track would be equivalent to lifting large swaithes of track and inserting plastic isolating rail connectors? Any advice would be most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Hi Andy - it would really help if you could make a note on your plan of where the shorts are occurring and where you have already wired droppers to feed the various sections of track. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted June 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2011 Probably worth going through these threads:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18581&start=0 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22850 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Ok, I'll amend the diagram and look at the threads. At present I'm simply holding the two wires from the controlle onto the two rails to see a loco move after weeks of no loco-motion! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Just in case, another excellent wiring site is: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 The golden rule with electrofrog points is that the feed should always come from the tiebar end of the point, otherwise the switch rails can cause a short circuit. At the minimum you're going to need something like this: Track feeds are represented by the double triangle symbol and double rail breaks by the red lines. However, depending on how you're going to operate the layout, you may need extra feeds & breaks (eg if you want one train to shunt some of the sidings while another orbits the main line). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Whilst preparing the drawing I have been beaten to it, fortunately it looks as though we agree, I have shown in red the minimum you need to abolish shorts, and in blue the additions needed to keep all tracks live for dcc, So you can shunt as suggested above or keep lights and sound on parked locos. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Guys, many thanks for your advice and for taking the trouble to help me out. I'll put it into practice tomorrow. Best regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I always find it really puzzling when people have problems with wiring for any controller. The rules are simple and never change. It is just that some recommend short cutting the rules and then frequently have problems. The great thing about DCC from the start is that you do not have to worry about section breaks and lots of switches. At a quick glance Grovenor has it right. But RJS1977 is wrong - this will work on DC, just, but not on DCC too many shortcuts used (Peco school of wiring) leaving loops with ++ or -- instead of +-. It is also really wrong for correct DC wiring as the loops and sidings should be sectioned with a switch. (OK what a load of extra fuss - and for DC it is a matter of choice.) The rules are: 1. an insulated joiner on EVERY frog rail - no exception no cheating no short cuts - even if you think you can get away with it. 2. power feeds from the bus to each stock rail of every point - then use these with the switch on the point motor to feed the frog. 3. supply power to any sections that do not have power from the bus. It really is that simple. you will never get a short. shorts are almost always due to an insulated joiner being omitted probably because of a shortcut in the rule. if some part of track doesn't get power, after following the rules, then you probably have a dry joint connection to the track or a track with no wire attached. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Apologies - as a non-DCCer I wasn't aware of the extra nuances - my understanding was that to convert a DC layout to DCC all you do is change the controller and turn all the section switches on! Though that said, I can see the advantages of leaving sidings 'live' if you want a loco parked in there with sound or lights on (or even a Roco telescopic hood wagon opening and closing!) And not really sure why the loops and sidings would need extra sections in DC..... Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Apologies - as a non-DCCer I wasn't aware of the extra nuances - my understanding was that to convert a DC layout to DCC all you do is change the controller and turn all the section switches on! Though that said, I can see the advantages of leaving sidings 'live' if you want a loco parked in there with sound or lights on (or even a Roco telescopic hood wagon opening and closing!) And not really sure why the loops and sidings would need extra sections in DC..... Richard In DCC the principle is to have every bit of track live (no exceptions) as you control the loco not the track. As regard to DC sections in the loop. If wired according to the rules, which were developed for wiring long before DCC was thought of, there is an obvious need to supply power to the dead sections that would be created. The "correct" way in DC to power these would be to switch them so that, for example, you can park a second loco in a loop/siding while running another. As said the "short cut" way is usually to simply omit the insulator in the DC wiring and then to simply rely on the design of the point. This option is only available with RTP track Peco, Hornby etc and introduces potential problems as it is not completely 100% reliable. It is not that the approach doesn't work for DC, just that it makes it very easy to end up with track that has shorts (making decisions based on track plan rather than simple electrical rules. Also such hard wired "short cuts" become a problem when/if you do wish to convert to DCC. This is probably the cause of nearly every question that comes up on here when someone moves to DCC and the creation of the myth "DCC wiring". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacRat Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I'd also go with Grovenor's diagram and the principle Kenton stated, but just for the sake of completeness, I think two feeds were overlooked in the diagram. The top left head siding should have a hollow triangle on the outer rail and in the bottom loop, the top through road should have a hollow triangle on the outer rail as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 The top left head siding should have a hollow triangle on the outer rail and in the bottom loop, the top through road should have a hollow triangle on the outer rail as well. Quite right, that's what comes of drawing things late at night, or whenever it was. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted June 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 26, 2011 Apologies - as a non-DCCer I wasn't aware of the extra nuances - my understanding was that to convert a DC layout to DCC all you do is change the controller and turn all the section switches on! Though that said, I can see the advantages of leaving sidings 'live' if you want a loco parked in there with sound or lights on (or even a Roco telescopic hood wagon opening and closing!) And not really sure why the loops and sidings would need extra sections in DC..... Richard I've never used live frog points but I'd expect that even on DC I'd need to use isolated rail joiners and frog switching for them to work properly anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 Ok, the Muppet who started this thread off, here. My previous layout was quite complex and had an "out and back" loop which needed a widget to switch the current and there were isolating rail joiners everywhere. I put that together years ago and the intervening period has allowed my senility to creep in and forget the basics. The new layout looked so simple that it lulled me into a certain sense of bliss and ignorance. The nylon rail joiners on each of the salvaged points made no impact on my consciousness Confession over! If anyone is passing NE Hampshire feel free to call by and give me a clip round the ear! I've attacked the first section and things are on the mend. All thanks to you guys. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 27, 2011 When I started building points some years ago it was recommended to use the ability of of a livefrog spoint to isolate sidings when the point was set the other way. However since then I have operated a good number of other peoples layouts as weel as my own and you find that this has some disadvantages for example the point cannot isolate both legs at once. A loco may be held isolated but switch the point and it can suddenly move. So I would now recommend Kenton's principles. Where isolating sections are required I would prefer to have a switch to do so. I now find DCC so much better as you can forget the need to through sections switches etc. It is useful to be able to isolate a lco somewhere though even on DCC you can park a non chipped loco there or one of your locos when a friend turns up with his loco using the same address. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 However since then I have operated a good number of other peoples layouts as well as my own and you find that this has some disadvantages for example the point cannot isolate both legs at once. A loco may be held isolated but switch the point and it can suddenly move. Well you do have to design to suit the operations, the drawback to the switches as seen at so many exhibitions is that people forget to switch them on and the train suddenly stops mid route. DCC does help. Of course they forget to change points as well, especially trailing points with the same effect and probably a short as well, DCC does not help with that one. In today's jargon we need a CMS for operators (Competence Management System) Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Guys, just to let you know that I've now wired the layout and am having fun watching the trains go round. Thanks for helping me get this far. Marvellous. Point control next! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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