RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2011 Right, following Eddie's lead a change from things lococentric I think. Many people have heard of Red Star Parcels but several decades earlier another colour formed part of the name of another type of railway service - what was the name of that service and what was its nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Green Arrow, overnight service between London and Edinburgh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2011 Green Arrow, overnight service between London and Edinburgh? Right name but wrong explanation (which I thought might prove a bit more problematic than the name) - so it should be giving someone a head start on getting the right explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Try again, London to Glasgow express freight service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2011 Try again, London to Glasgow express freight service? Nope. Forget geography as it seems to be misleading you and retrace your steps slightly (but you'll still need a bit more). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The Wiki entry for the locomotive 4771 "Green Arrow" is misleading, as it references but misquotes the RCTS "Green Book". Wiki describes it as an express freight service, when the source actually gives it as a "registered goods" service (as quoted verbatim here: http://www.lner.info/locos/V/v2.shtml). Green Arrow was actually a registered overnight transit service inaugurated by the LNER in 1928. It was a service not confined to a single route, and in some ways was similar to Red Star in that respect, although it was based on full wagon loads. Suspended during the war years, it was reinstated by BR in 1953. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2011 Green Arrow was actually a registered overnight transit service inaugurated by the LNER in 1928. It was a service not confined to a single route, and in some ways was similar to Red Star in that respect, although it was based on full wagon loads. Suspended during the war years, it was reinstated by BR in 1953. Certainly in my early days in Redhill Control (1968 - on) a telephoned consist from another Region might well include mention of "3 Green Arrows" as well as total number of wagons, loco number, actual start time. I assume telex would have sent the actual wagon numbers to the receiving yard office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2011 The Wiki entry for the locomotive 4771 "Green Arrow" is misleading, as it references but misquotes the RCTS "Green Book". Wiki describes it as an express freight service, when the source actually gives it as a "registered goods" service (as quoted verbatim here: http://www.lner.info/locos/V/v2.shtml). Green Arrow was actually a registered overnight transit service inaugurated by the LNER in 1928. It was a service not confined to a single route, and in some ways was similar to Red Star in that respect, although it was based on full wagon loads. Suspended during the war years, it was reinstated by BR in 1953. Thanks Eddie - spot on and we should perhaps add that it was not only reinstated by BR but extended over the network; we used to 'wire' (send a telegram) originating wagons with full details plus booked starting service and then the process was either 'wired on', or specially noted on the ATI consist (once they were in use), or 'fonet' (advised by telephone message). And a small green arrow, reading 'Registered Service' if I remember rightly, was pasted at the top of the wagon label. And back to Eddie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Back to locos, and I'll try something a little more tricky. The Malines & Terneuzen was a private railway company which finally was taken over by the national systems of Belgium and Holland after the second world war. In its early days it was notable for a fleet of ancient locomotives acquired second- or third-hand from the London and North Western Railway. MT locomotive no. 9 was a 0-6-0 built in 1858, which it bought from the LNWR in 1874. What was its original owner and number, and what was the Portuguese connection bestowed on it by the LNWR? (I'll add a clarification to the "Portuguese connection", that it relates to a title borne by a very famous Briton in the nineteenth century). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2011 You are a very awkward chap Eddie; I have actually got a picture of that Company's Loco No.4 and a lot of net searching has led me to pics of at least 7 other locos owned at some time by the but nothing at all about No.9 - in either English, French, or Dutch/Flemish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 You are a very awkward chap Eddie; I have actually got a picture of that Company's Loco No.4 and a lot of net searching has led me to pics of at least 7 other locos owned at some time by the but nothing at all about No.9 - in either English, French, or Dutch/Flemish I'll take that as a compliment. But c'mon, have I not led you on an interesting little journey? No. 4 was a lovely Beyer Peacock 2-4-0 constructed new for the Malines & Terneuzen. Wouldn't the Malines & Terneuzen make an excellent prototype for a model? There are no less than five photographs of no. 9 in the second volume of the definitive French language work on Belgian steam and you'll find all the required information there too. Alternatively there was an article in the Locomotive Magazine in 1908, which I suspect is the ultimate source of the information published in the book. However there should be enough information to answer the question in various LNWR archives. I don't have the book of locomotive names, and can't lay my hands on my copy of Livesey - either could be of assistance. One further clue/warning is that the loco won't be found in Jack's work on locomotives of the LNWR Southern Division, as it was absorbed into the northern divsion. And as I'm in a generous mood, one more clue. The locomotive had a classmate "twin" that had a similar journey, also being sold to MT (becoming no. 10) in 1874. It received an LNWR name reminiscent of a famous working replica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2011 Hmm - I'm suspicious of some red herrings in the original question. As the LNWR was formed in 1846 and the loco was built in 1858 that suggests that it was a DX (which would quite possibly have originally been named as LNWR goods engines were still named at that time) but also means it would have originally been owned by the LNWR - but the question implies that was not the case. So it must have been a loco belonging to a railway taken over by the LNWR after 1858 - which could be the Lancaster & Preston Junction (1859) or the Lancaster & Carlisle (1859) - I strongly suspect the latter (but don't really know why as it had no 6 coupled locos of Crew origin). But seek as I might the only M&T locos of LNWR origin which I can find any details of are No.s 7 & 8 (presumably 'Newtons') built 1867 and sold in 1872, and 4 DX 0-6-0s which became MT No.s 15 -18 in 1901 and included LNW No.s 540, 1459, and 1798. Nothing on MT No.9 and my library on early LNW and constituent locos is as near non-existent as makes no difference and Ahrons is no help at all. So I shall stand aside for someone more expert on this one but at least I've had an interesting voyage around the Belgian-Dutch border, paid a visit (virtual this time) to the peculiarly old-fashioned SNCB museum at Brussel Nord, revised my far from expert understanding of written French and reacquainted myself with the peculiarities, and relatively easy comprehension, of written Dutch/Flemish. All good fun while it lasted, now to resume life But before I leave it I'll throw in a stab in the dark with a real wild card and go for one of the L&C's two Jones & Potts locos which became 214 on the LNWR and as 214A alleged lt became the prototype for the DX class before being sold out of service (although one source claims that as happening in 1860 so I'm no doubt well off the mark especially in suggesting it might have been re-named when allegedly rebuilt. But I can't find a DX with a 'sort of' Portuguese' link in its name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Well Hercule Poirot might have been a Belgian, but I assure you there are no red herrings in my question. This locomotive (and its twin) originally belonged to a company which, after a change of name, passed into joint ownership of the LNWR and another company (I don't want to make it too easy!!!), these locomotives passing into LNWR stock. The railway itself remained a joint line until nationalisation. You were along the right lines with your suggestions of companies taken over by the LNWR, but it was neither of those you identified. The locomotives were neither DX, nor predecessors of DX (except that they were 0-6-0s). They were not built at Crewe (nor Jones and Potts for that matter), but by one of the major locomotive building firms extant at that time. As mentioned earlier, the "Portuguese connection" refers to a title borne by a very famous figure from the nineteenth century, and was taken up on the same day that he received the title he is more familiarly known by. Oddly enough, he is famously connected to a place in Belgium - purely coincidental to the sale of the locomotive there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 As an aside, here is a table of locos sold to the Malines & Terneuzen by the LNWR (excluding nos. 9 and 10, of course). 6 Crewe /1845 2-2-2T Orig. Grand Junction (later L&NWR) 2-2-2 75 "APOLLO", rbt. as 2-2-2T 1860, renum 1869 in 1872 and sold 5/1872. 7 SS 1757/1867 2-4-0 Orig. Caernarvonshire Railway no. 1 "GLYNLLIVON", later L&NWR 1790. 8 SS 1899/1868 2-4-0 Orig. Caernarvonshire Railway no. 2 "CARNARVONSHIRE", later L&NWR 1791. 9 10 11 Crewe 1187/1868 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 1801 (SDX 410). 12 Crewe 552/1862 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 1877 (34 "PHOEBUS"), sold 7/1888. 13 Crewe 583/1862 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 1916 (761), sold 1900? 14 Crewe 745/1864 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 1985 (1332), sold 1893. 15 Crewe 1374/1871 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 3112 (1978), sold 1901. 16 Crewe 1226/1869 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 3115 (1775), sold 1901. Also given as 1366/1869 from Crewe list. 17 Crewe 899/1866 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 3275 (1459), sold 1901. 18 Crewe 1500/1872 0-6-0 Ex-L&NWR 3287 (1221), sold 1901. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagrizz Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Birkenhead Railway no.41 built as a 2-4-0 by Sharp Stewart in 1858. Became LNWR 124 Marquis Douro. Renumbered 1176 in 1865 then 1837 in 1871. Rebuilt as an 0-6-0 in 1869. Became MT no.9. BR no.42 became LNWR 231 Firefly. Renumbered 1178 then 1838, rebuilt in 1865 as an 0-6-0. Became MT no.10. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Birkenhead Railway no.41 built as a 2-4-0 by Sharp Stewart in 1858. Became LNWR 124 Marquis Douro. Renumbered 1176 in 1865 then 1837 in 1871. Rebuilt as an 0-6-0 in 1869. Became MT no.9. BR no.42 became LNWR 231 Firefly. Renumbered 1178 then 1838, rebuilt in 1865 as an 0-6-0. Became MT no.10. Graham Correct. The original owner was the Birkenhead, Lancashire & Cheshire Junction Railway, which later shortened its name to Birkenhead Railway. The only thing to add is that Arthur Wellesley took the title "Marquess of Douro" on the occasion that he was elevated to the peerage, becoming at the same time Duke of Wellington. The following year he led a famous victory against Napoleon Bonaparte somewhere in Belgium! Over to you, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagrizz Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 This one is easier. The last steam loco off Nuneaton shed in 1966 still exists. What is to be its fate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 2B or nor 2B? (well 5E as it became), that is the question. Loco no. 78059, a standard 2MT 2-6-0 is to be rebuilt as "84030", a standard 2MT 2-6-2T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagrizz Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Quite right. And yes Nuneaton was 5E by then. Your shout Eddie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Thanks, Graham. Returning to the theme of locomotives built in 1858, I think this was possibly the oldest locomotive to pass into British Railways' ownership, surviving for a further three years after nationalisation (when, sadly it was scrapped). A conventional four-coupled tank locomotive when first built, it passed to another company shortly after entering service, who extensively rebuilt it at their own works in 1872. Into what form was it rebuilt, and what was its BR number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold LH&JC Posted July 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2011 Was it the Sharp Stewart that was rebuilt by the North London Railway as a crane tank that was numbered 58865 under BR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Was it the Sharp Stewart that was rebuilt by the North London Railway as a crane tank that was numbered 58865 under BR? Indeed it was. built for the South Acton to Hammersmith branch of the North and South Western Junction Railway, taken over by the North London Railway shortly after delivery. It was rebuilt as an 0-4-2ST with 3-ton crane in the NLR Bow Works. Over to you LH&JC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold LH&JC Posted July 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2011 OK Which surviving Manx Peacock has the dubious distinction of not working a single train following a heavy overhaul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold LH&JC Posted July 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2011 I think I should add another clue, the loco in question spent well over a decade in store before revival with another loco's boiler in 1993. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 No. 10 G. H. WOOD? Boiler donated from no. 13 KISSACK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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