two tone green Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Was playing at the weekend with the layout and decided to experiment a bit more with the turntable set up in RR&Co and came up with an interesting little problem which is hardware based and not really a RR&Co issue but it does affect the way RR&Co controls my locos on the turntable. My turntable is the excellent Fleischmann 6152C and is interfaced to the software to the equally good Fleischmann Turntable control unit 6915 which allows the software to control the turntable as if it was a full digital turntable. The software is therefore able to take a loco from any point on the layout and park it on any exit track around the turntable. It works well. I thought it did until the weekend. The deck of the turntable is fed via a Lenz LK100 reverse loop module but the 6915 is capable of doing this inside the u it itself. But I had fitted the Lenz unit before I got around to wiring in the 69i5 so to avoid disturbing the wiring I stayed with it. It does the same so as far as I was concerned at the time, leave it alone, it works. To keep this short, I had set up the 6915 a while ago now and had all the entry exits tracks mapped to the software and it worked as it said on the tin. Set up the blocks on all the entry exit tracks with block occupancy detectors, current sensing type, including one for the deck which has to be fed with DCC track power from the reversing unit LK100, on the output side. Now RR&Co has a few little quirks to it and some times setting things up don't always go as you think they may do but it works. Setting up the brake and stop markers for the blocks around the turntable and on the deck produced some interesting figures for the distances to be put into the software to get the loco to stop in the right place. Usually in a very short block that is only just longer than your longest loco you know that the stop point is going to be just over the 11 inches of the loco, say 12 inches for this story. But to get the loco to stop in the right place with the nose of the loco about an inch back from the edge of the deck edge I had to set 5 inches in the stop properties box and same for the brake ramp. Odd. One observation, the deck sits with the little cabin on the deck at the far side of the deck so it does not obstruct the view as such so if a loco enters from the left the cabin is at the left front side of the loco. The way it is wired also means that the reverse unit trips as soon as the loco hits to approach track to change polarity. This is a clue. Any one who knows the turntable knows that it has clip in short approach tracks that you locate in the position you want them too allowing 48 exit entry tracks. When using DCC these tracks are connected to the rest of the layout via insulated fish plates or a suitable gap is left between each rail to avoid shorts etc. These short approach tracks are then fed by the supply from the deck itself once it lines up with the track in use. The rest of the track work around the turntable is fed with normal DCC track power so all the lights sound stay on as normal. Of course the deck is powered all the time as well so lights and sound continue as they should. But back to my five inches, odd, why. Another clue. I noticed that the block occupancy detector did not light on the display until the loco had cleared the track that connected to the short approach track and entirely on track fed by the reverse unit. Normally a block occupancy detector comes on as soon as wheels hit the rails that are connected to the block occupancy unit and not wait until all the length of the loco was in the block. So this is why the stop maker and brake marker distances were so short, normally they would have need a good 12 inches but only five was enough in this case if you know what I mean. Reason is the trigger point is the turning on of the indicator by he front of the loco, but all the loco, all 11 inches of it was inside the block before it turned on so it only needed to travel a further 5 inches before it need to stop. hence the 5 inches being enough. Don't forget the reverse unit has tripped and is tripped in all this so far. Now turn the table around so the little cabin is at the other end of the deck and the trains pass it straight away as the enter the deck from the left again. The reverse unit goes back to its 'off state, no short' as the loco enters and stop five inches onto the deck so the loco is half on half off the turntable. Look at the block occupancy detector and it has operated straight away as soon as the from wheels of the loco hit the rails it is controlling, as it should. Not when the loco has fully entered the block as before. So yes, the loco would stop after 5 inches as that is what is set in the block properties for brake and stop markers. Not a good idea when the turntable starts to turn to align the loco with another exit track, it don't move, bit of a jam !!!!!! So for now its wait until next weekend and some more playing to resolve it. Like I said. I like the little cabin at the far end of the deck so it does not hide the view of the loco. One day I will remove it and fit nice turntable turning gear as per the real thing, near enough any way. So I think I will swap over the power feed wires so the track is fed by the reverse unit when it is in its off position, no short, the block occupancy detectors operates as soon as the front wheels of a loco hits the approach tracks and set my brake and stop markers for the full length of the loco, a little more to even it up on the deck. I don't turn locos as I only operate diesels so i can make sure the deck does not turn fully and mess things up again. But that's all next weekend. So still learning things about the layout, DCC and RR&CO. As I said, this is a hardware problem and not the software. If the block occupancy detector operated straight away this would not have happened but it waits until the loco is fully in the block when the LK100 has operated. But for those about to install, set up their turntables, watch out. But when it does work and a loco is moved around and parked by the sofware it is really good. Have fun TTG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi TTG I am no expert here (if anywhere) but I do have a Fleischmann turntable that I will eventually hook up to both power and RR&Co so I am interested in your problem/solution A question...........have you tried checking the occupancy detectors without RR&Co just using the Lenz controller and F6..............if they show the same result ie in one direction all is well and in the other occupancy is only detected when the loco is well into the block................then that would imply it is not an RR&co problem rather a conflict between the Fleichmann and Lenz polarity units........just a thought Another thought....... on DC I extended the short entry blocks to accommodate a full length loco before I insulated them from the regular track supply and I was planning to do the same on DCC Kind Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi John, It is not a software issue as I said in my post. I checked the feed back via the LH100 and it confirms what the software is saying. The position of the rail breaks for me is unimportant as it does not really make much difference. I use the same set up now as I did in the bad old days of DC and worse days of ZTC until going over to DCC when all became good. The plan for this weekend for me as long as the boss allows it as she has Christmas things on her mind it to try out the internal reverse unit in the 6915 and also to swap the wires as a temp fix until my brain provides a more permanent fix so I can turn locos if I want. Also I had considered before all this in changing the LK100 to the newer LK200 as the 100 is relay operated and the 200 is solid state. With the newer 200 it will be a lot quieter as well in operation. The 100 is almost maxed out in adjustment because of operating sound fitted locos. With a Heljan 47 or 52 fitted with ESU Loksound decoders, the current draw is quite a bit and the LK100 reacts to it with vigor. The adjustment pot is almost all the way around so I think the higher rated faster solid state LK200 may be a tad better. But if the internal unit in the 6915 works then it will save me a few pennies. But having used the turntable already with RR&Co and seeing what it can do even with the problem it is impressive how it all works. Sound works, lights work it all works although in a slightly fudged fashion. Its only because I tuned the deck 180 I found out the problem. Will let you know what happens. TTG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Re-read your message and thought about your suggestion of extending the tracks around the turntable and then having the insulating gaps. If this is done on DCC or even on DC, these extensions will only be powered when the deck is in line with them. So you will loose sound, lights, operation of the loco in that section unless the deck is in line with the section you want to control. The little clip in section of track, about two inches long is fed power from the deck as it rotates and aligns itself. My track plan for my shed area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted December 2, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2009 Re-read your message and thought about your suggestion of extending the tracks around the turntable and then having the insulating gaps. If this is done on DCC or even on DC, these extensions will only be powered when the deck is in line with them. So you will loose sound, lights, operation of the loco in that section unless the deck is in line with the section you want to control. The little clip in section of track, about two inches long is fed power from the deck as it rotates and aligns itself. My track plan for my shed area. Sorry TTG that was me with blinkers on.......I dont have sound and light altough I do have to turn thru 180o. After your post I re read the turntable section of the manual and now I am all fired up trying to reschedule my construction programme so I can get to the turntable before 2011 I look forward to reading about your progress Good Luck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 If the boss allows me to play this weekend when I get home, I'll post what I find. I was always told in school RTFM, work it out yourself thinking about your post above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Hi TTG Was wondering if you could help me set up my 6915 with RR&Co gold, I have an N gauge 9152c turntable and I can get it to work with the 6915 no problem but when I check ch2 on the 6915 for a DCC signal it shows 00 although it has at one point shown 02 DCC. Hope to hear from you TIA Was playing at the weekend with the layout and decided to experiment a bit more with the turntable set up in RR&Co and came up with an interesting little problem which is hardware based and not really a RR&Co issue but it does affect the way RR&Co controls my locos on the turntable. Have fun TTG JohnAC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 Hi John, Gosh, its a while since I posted all that and the layout is now gone although I still have my OO turntable and the 6915. I did get it all to work really well and was impressive to watch it all work as part of a schedule. I'll try to hep but I cannot test things as its all broken down now. But I'll give it a go from memory. I'll try to find the manual and read up but its all at home and I wont be there until Friday. Sorry for the delay but being away does not help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Hi John, Gosh, its a while since I posted all that and the layout is now gone although I still have my OO turntable and the 6915. I did get it all to work really well and was impressive to watch it all work as part of a schedule. I'll try to hep but I cannot test things as its all broken down now. But I'll give it a go from memory. I'll try to find the manual and read up but its all at home and I wont be there until Friday. Sorry for the delay but being away does not help. No problem there is no rush and I will continue to play with it as it shouldn't be too difficult to fathom but the ch2 reading is causing some bother as I know there is a signal at the 6195. Thanks for the reply John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 Sorry, I cannot remember just what channel 2 does. I really must find the manual. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Right got the manual. It was deep under a lot of Lenz stuff. What has changed from when you had code 2 as code 0 means no Loconet or DCC system connected. I take it it is not a digitrax system you are using. Try connecting the unit directly to the DCC out put of your system and recheck the code. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Right got the manual. It was deep under a lot of Lenz stuff. What has changed from when you had code 2 as code 0 means no Loconet or DCC system connected. I take it it is not a digitrax system you are using. Try connecting the unit directly to the DCC out put of your system and recheck the code. OK switched on this morning and did a ch2 and found 02 DCC, I am using a Lenz 100 set, the TT responds to the handset s/t 200 gives a 180 turn 220 goes my first exit (my datum) 221 goes to the second exit and 222 goes to the 3rd exit the other three exits are passive in RR&Co but numbered 23, 24 and 25 ie all exits consecutively numbered. The TT also responds to the 6915 as I would expect. Would you agree that this is ok so far? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 To explain a little bit further 23, 24 and 25 are as numbered on the 6915 and respond to addresses 223, 224 and 225 as also 220 is numbered 22 on the 6915 221 is 21 and 222 is 22. HTH John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Hi John, it seems ok so far. It is responding to the exit commands. Don't forget you need to set up the passive exits opposite those exits that do not allow a loco to go straight across the turntable deck. If you look at the picture of the deck on my old layout, you will see that I only have once track that allows a loco to traveler right across the TT so all the other exits would have passive exits set up on the 6915. Did you find out what happened and why you got a 00 code. The connector on mine was very aggressive and actually cut through the fine cable I was using at the time. I ended up tinning the ends to reinforce the wire and the connector gripped it better this way. TTG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 This is all very frustrating just gone back to the layout and tried to turn the TT with my handset and there is no response checked ch2 and it is reading 00 ie no DCC signal I am beginning to think the 6915 may be faulty in some way. I have changed the DCC feed wires to tinned ends but nothing has changed will leave it for an hour or two as it may be temperature related but clutching at straws here. All the active and passive tracks are programmed into the 6915 numbered from 20, 21,22 which are active tracks and their opposites 23, 24 and 25 which are passive. The 6915 is bugging me now as I only got it a few days ago, oh well never mind. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Take a DCC feed directly from the LZV100 to the 6915 and see what happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Well the feed at the moment from the LZV100 is about 10 inches long to 2 chocolate blocks and I have connected the 6915 directly to that but will give it a go anyway. When the 6915 first starts up it gets a DCC signal but soon after it loses it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 What else comes off the chocolate blocks? Are you powering any accessories from your DCC bus such as point decoders or signal modules. These if you are are better fed from their own power supply. Is anything happening on the layout such as a short etc before you lose the DCC signal to the 6915? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 All accessory decoders have a separate power supply so nothing using DCC for power I have ls150,s an LS100 and some LDT stuff all powered by a Lenz tranny. There are no shorts other than those I deliberately make to ensure I have DCC power on the wires I am connecting to the 6915. The garage is getting warmer now so I have bought the 6915 in and put it in the fridge I would like to either confirm or eliminate a temperature problem on the 6915. Will let you know how I get on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Putting it in the fridge, interesting approach. Cannot comment on the temp aspect as I have a dedicated railway room so its always nice and warm. Do let us know what you find. It would have to be very cool for it to fail I suspect as it warms itself due to the power used. Mine did get a little warm in us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Well after putting it in the fridge for an hour or so took it out to the layout and it works, 02 showing on ch2 and reponding to the handset. It seems to me that something is just getting a little warm inside the 6915 but will try the experiment again before I send it back. The railway room doesn't get to warm at this time of year and in the afternoon its in the shade. Will check the temperature next time I go in there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Intersting but it could be red herring. It could be something electrically breaking down. But as you say, worth checking a bit more before returning. How about setting it up in the house where the temp may be a bit more stable. Where did you buy it, how long have you had it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Only had it a week, bought it from Conrad. Dont think its ambient temperature thats causing the problem more like something inside as you say breaking down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 What voltage are you feeding it with and is it DC or AC. Usually by feeding electronics that will accept AC or Dc you get less heating effect with DC as you don't need to rectify the supply before it can be used. But it must be about at the stage where you send it back telling them what happens. I would not leave it much longer before sending back to avoid any issues although you have the usual warranty etc of 1 year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAC Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Have already e-mailed them. I'm using a LENZ TR100 tranny 16v AC. While I am awaiting a reply I might try using a DC supply just out of interest. Will keep you informed thanks for the help so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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