British Rail Green

[millerhillboy]

Can anyone who has sprayed any locos in late British Rail green advise who's paint they used? and indeed if it was even a railway specific colour.

I've heard that you can use some car paints perhaps.

 

 

 

To be more exact, I've just had a loco sprayed in Phoenix P101 Post 1954 Locomotive Green. I haven't actually seen the loco in the flesh but the picture I've seen makes me wonder if the colour is actually correct.

The guy who done the respray advises me the colour is correct for prototype pictures he's seen.

 

I think I'm just panicking over nothing but I'd be interested to hear of anyones experience with P101 or any other BR green variant.

 

Picture here for comments

 

PS I know the footplate is black all the way along ;-), that'll be sorted first

[jukebox]

I recently painted a Duke of Gloucester using Phoenix P101 Post 1954 Locomotive Green... and couldn't live with the result (too olive).

 

I ended up decanting some of the tin, adding 30% navy blue to it, and came up with what was for me, an acceptable result:

 

[millerhillboy]

Thanks Jukebox, guess I'm not the only one who's thinking it just doesn't look right.

 

I'm not going to do anything until I see it in the flesh, and I'm wondering if I the application of lining, numbers etc will bring it all together a bit more, not to mention weathering as well.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I read somewhere, IIRC on their website, that Pheonix paints are matched against a white background.

Final colour of a paint depends on the coat(s) below, so painting on black will give a totally different shade to painting on white.

Also, varnishes will alter the shade by different amounts.

[Metr0Land]

Thanks Jukebox - must admit I'd never thought about adding navy to the green colour - one to file away for future reference.

 

Millerhillboy: If I may hijack this slightly to illustrate the point about base colours (and weathering) affecting the final 'look'. I recently did a couple of London Transport wagons. Although the light is slightly different in each shot, I think you can still judge that the weathering and undercoats greatly affect the outcome.

 

The 3 plank wagon has the same engineers grey as the Dogfish. The 3 plank had a black undercoat and more muddy brown weathering, whereas the Dogfish had grey undercoat and grey/white powdered dusting as befits its use.

 

For any loco/coach/wagon it's good to have an idea of the overall effect you want - new into service/woebegone/somewhere in between - with a bit of patience and practice you can get a variety of outcomes. I promise you I have no tech skill - I've just learned from places like this to be patient and build up several thin coats, which really does make a difference.

 

[coachmann]

Having lived for 23 years in the steam era I know what BR loco green looked like and more importantly, what it didn't look like. It was probably no coincidence that at least two of us older painters considered Precision Paints GWR post 1945 loco green the bees knees.

[millerhillboy]

Thanks Jukebox - must admit I'd never thought about adding navy to the green colour - one to file away for future reference.

 

Millerhillboy: If I may hijack this slightly to illustrate the point about base colours (and weathering) affecting the final 'look'. I recently did a couple of London Transport wagons. Although the light is slightly different in each shot, I think you can still judge that the weathering and undercoats greatly affect the outcome.

 

The 3 plank wagon has the same engineers grey as the Dogfish. The 3 plank had a black undercoat and more muddy brown weathering, whereas the Dogfish had grey undercoat and grey/white powdered dusting as befits its use.

 

For any loco/coach/wagon it's good to have an idea of the overall effect you want - new into service/woebegone/somewhere in between - with a bit of patience and practice you can get a variety of outcomes. I promise you I have no tech skill - I've just learned from places like this to be patient and build up several thin coats, which really does make a difference.

 

 

Thanks Metro, not a threadjack at all, really quite useful actually. I never considered that the undercoat itself might be the reason.

[millerhillboy]

Having lived for 23 years in the steam era I know what BR loco green looked like and more importantly, what it didn't look like. It was probably no coincidence that at least two of us older painters considered Precision Paints GWR post 1945 loco green the bees knees.

Coachmann, do you mean that you use the GWR colour to more accurately represent BR green?

[millerhillboy]

Would it be fair to say that a coat of gloss varnish or two might deepen the colour then

 

I've seen some great deep greens by Max Stafford on the Waverley Route sub-forum, I think its Johnsons Klear or equivalent that is used.

[Jamie]

Matt finish does sap the "depth" out of a colour.

Whether by way of gloss varnishing or by polishing the surface of a factory finish with cutting compound, improving the gloss can help a little. However the base colour needs to be right in the first place - for some 4mm examples, Heljan diesel loco green is much improved for a swirl of T-cut, whereas Hornby stanier coaches still look brown regardless.

[asmay2002]

It is scientifically well known and documented that people are hopeless at remembering colour (although very good at comparing two real colours when set next to each other). This applies to everybody. Colout film is as bad and has its own set of biases. The only way of matching two colours is against the real thing. Then you run into the second problem well known to artists that colors change with distance getting bluer and greyer the further away they are (this applies to scale models where you are in effect looking at something from a significant distance). This means it's no good just painting a model with the same paint as the real engine (it will look too dark). Is the precision paint the right colour - probably. Is it appropriate for a model? Don't know but the matt finish doesn't help and the perception will change when you have some lining on it. Your lighting will also have a big effect too. Take it outside and look at in in daylight

[£1.38]

It is scientifically well known and documented that people are hopeless at remembering colour (although very good at comparing two real colours when set next to each other). This applies to everybody. Colout film is as bad and has its own set of biases. The only way of matching two colours is against the real thing. Then you run into the second problem well known to artists that colors change with distance getting bluer and greyer the further away they are (this applies to scale models where you are in effect looking at something from a significant distance). This means it's no good just painting a model with the same paint as the real engine (it will look too dark). Is the precision paint the right colour - probably. Is it appropriate for a model? Don't know but the matt finish doesn't help and the perception will change when you have some lining on it. Your lighting will also have a big effect too. Take it outside and look at in in daylight

 

....totally true - but add the fact that the paint might not all have been the same to start with, paint changes colour over time - (GW green was supposed to develop a blueish tinge as it weathered), different people's brains interpret colours differently etc. etc.

 

There was a programme on BBC not long ago (Horizon?) that showed how even the language you speak can change your interpretation of colour.

[millerhillboy]

thanks to all in this thread, interesting stuff actually

 

won't be doing anything rash until the model is in hand and I compare side by side other green models that I have that I am happy with.

 

the chap who done the spray assures me that in the flesh the colour is comparable with prototype pictures that I sent, and also that the picture above is not particularly well lit.

 

We'll see how it looks in the flesh.

[millerhillboy]

In conclusion to this thread, I decided after consulting with the chap who done the basic respray plus with the info provided here to just bash on and give it a coat of gloss varnish

 

Came out like this on the tender, loco itself still to be done. Just wanted to post to show how much difference the gloss varnish made.

 

At least for me looks a nice deep colour..and to my eye looks correct... please excuse the mess on the tender, I'd just finished doing the decals and was still a bit messy.

 

The transfers have since been sealed in with satin varnish and I'm now very happy with the colour. I'll post back when I get a picture of the satin finish for additional comparison again

[silverlink]

My personnel choice over the last 30 plus years has always been Precision BR Green 101. I love it but of course that is just my own view. This thred is very simular to one on another site I use regarding the colour 'Fiesta Red' a famous colour used by Fender on their guitars. There has been much discussion as to 'what is' the correct colour over many years and still no one can agree. I think the same applies here, I do notice in your picture that the finish looks to be matt which can make a slight difference to the colour. I always use dull and after transfers are added it is varnished with Ronseal satin varish with a little matt added. Have done dozens & dozens for customers over the years with no complaints on colour.

silverlink

(Peasholm Models)

[Bigglesof266]

Can anyone who has sprayed any locos in late British Rail green advise who's paint they used?

Having examined the subject for myself, I think this is one of those "how long is a piece of string" type questions?

 

Two different scenarios come to mind. I have only needed to attempt application of the first to locomotives, and have applied the methodology outlined below to my satisfaction in achieving an indiscernible from original paint match for Hornby RTR BR lined green (BR green, BR black, LMS 'Coronation' blue and SR Malachite.

 

The first, and surprisingly the easiest to answer albeit inarguably time consuming and laborious in application, is matching an existing shade of an RTR loco for a repair/modification job. Good natural light with application of keen Mk1 Eyeballs, standard issue, two thereof applies. In this case, pick your preferred or any of the several available brands' alleged BR green as a base colour to start with. Starting from their as a datum as is -thinned appropriately of course- and ensuring your comparison sheet is as close to an identical base coat as intended the target original, spray a couple of coats, let dry and compare shades. From there, it's trial and error blending other base colours to the mix repeating the procedure until you eventually achieve the right shade indiscernible from the original colour. Then you prep 'n paint. Let dry to dry shade for final confirmation you are content with it before finishing with a clear coat of matt, satin, semi-gloss or gloss being your choice to blend in the existing finish.

 

In the second scenario of a complete all over paint job, determine what it is you wish to achieve. Uniformity with the rest of your fleet? Easy peasy. Case above applies. Authentic exact BR colour replication? First you have to determine what authentic and exact means as interpreted by you. That's the hard part. The rest is easy.

 

Why hard? In any argument about what is authentic between company paint regulations and specification versus real world in the field application, which is truly the most correct, or authentic representation of real life if you will, applies. The good part about all of this is that that those very factors allow a some flexibility and artistic licence. And that's before considerations of the effects of exposure to time & weather. Similar arguments about which is actually correct minor differences in shade can be seen in analogy to WWII German RLM specifications for aircraft camouflage colours. Now there's nothing actually wrong as such with pedantry about such things, the caveat being as long as pedants are accepting of all the facts including those which apply in the real world which aren't necessarily written down in the still accessible for reference manuals, or can be "proven" by cross-reference to some archival record on the appropriate form 'n' submitted at the time "in quadruplicate if you please". These, as even the best colour photos of the day can be as misleading as a memory distorted by time.

 

As others have already said. Where case two applies, they have their preferred favourite paint brand and number which sits in accord with their memory or research. You just need to discover yours. GL

 

Cheers,

 

Keiron