RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2012 Learn to solder first with an iron preferably an electric one although I learnt with a plain iron on a gas ring. The big advantage of things like an RSU is that it is easier to solder small details on without getting solder all over them. The other thing missed out is the use of a flame. For some jobs a flame is a good option. I have used a blow torch, a small gas torch sold for cookery! but now have a jewellers microflame unit which provides a very hot very small flame. However you still need a basic iron. Usual choices are; Electrical work - basic iron Track construction - basic iron Etched kits / scratch building - microflame or RSU plus basic iron A friend who made a living from buildings locos for sale uses an electrically heated iron for most work. Whilst another uses a microflame. It is what suits you. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ) I have a temperature-controlled Antex, can't remember the wattage and the label has long since worn off, it's the one with the little screw in the handle to alter the temp rather than the fancy ones with a separate box of electronics. For years this was on all day every day and in practice the temperature never gets changed, even for whitemetal. It is all about getting the heat into the joint and nowhere else so you want to get the joint soldered quickly before the heat dissipates into the surrounding metal and other joints start falling apart. regard.. Could agree more. This is the iron I use and is 50W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilNE Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Does it harm a soldering iron to have it turned on unused for any length of time? Not talking hours but say 15 minutes between use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Does it harm a soldering iron to have it turned on unused for any length of time? Not talking hours but say 15 minutes between use. My iron gets switched on a approx 09:00 every morning and is set on a timer plug to turn off every night at 22:00 - in case I forget in the rush to get to work. I have had irons last years but then again just replaced the element twice in as many months. I look after my tips - removing all trace of flux after every active session before returning it to its stand. I get through tips at the rate of about 1 every 2 years depending on how aggressive I am with a file. I make a point of using solid copper tips - some of the plated ones on the really cheap irons are near useless as they do not tin very well and seem to corrode very quickly for my heavy use. I have no idea how the electronics of a temp controlled iron would survive - I don't have or need one. just in case the message is not filtering through - clean everything - thoroughly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilNE Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thanks Kenton, was just me being over cautious! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Just to clarify, before I make my final decision, what relationships are there between Watts and temperature. I'm a little confused that you talk about irons in Watts and solder in temperature melting points. Can somebody explain this please? If 25W and 60W irons can reach the temperatures required, is it just the speed that they reach this temperature? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 All uncontrolled irons will achieve a high enough temperature to melt all soft solders. The key is heat capacity. A higher wattage iron can maintain a higher temperature and cool less rapidly when in contact with the work which acts as a heat sink. Similarly, larger tips usually have a higher capacity and cool less rapidly. So, for example, a 25W iron with a 3mm tip may well be able to maintain temperature at the tip longer than a 60W iron with 1mm tip. With small tips and low wattage irons, even the short time needed to complete a joint may cool the tip too much, leaving a poor joint. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 ... and it is even worse if that is a temperature controlled iron as the repeated cycling on the element can be detrimental so for temperature controlled go for a higher wattage than for a plain iron. This cooling of the iron and heat sink effects are very significant in 7mm work where some of the parts are quite large. As said in my first reply: you need to understand the metals and the potential to lose heat both deliberately and incidentally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdford Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 HI Everyone, Because of another thread on another forum, I uploaded a soldering tutorial which may be useful to you http://www.xdford.di.../soldering1.htm and follow the links! I do have some other tutorials on http://www.xdford.digitalzones.com on other matters of model rail interest which will work if the first link does not for the soldering ! Hope this helps Regards from Oz Trevor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Thanks again, particularly Buffalo, very interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 http://www.xdford.digitalzones.com/soldering1.htm I have a problem with this tutorial! Whilst it may be appropriate for printed circuit board component soldering, it is certainly not good practice for metal kit soldering :no:In two respects:1. you should not apply heat to the join followed by solder without flux. Heat should be applied last.2. the implication of formation of a "buttress". The suggestion is that the solder used should be propping up the part. This is a bad soldered join in kits. the solder should be filling the very tiny gap between the two parts and no more. Most people use far too much solder because they wrongly think that more will hold it together - it will not.This is part of the problem with soldering: it requires different techniques for different tasks, as sated at the start the most important thing to understand is what you are attempting to solder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 1. you should not apply heat to the join followed by solder without flux. Heat should be applied last. Kenton, Am i eading you right... heat applied last; not add flux, heat components to be soldered, apply solder to headed components (not iron). How are you going to add the solder before the heat? I'm missing something aren't I? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Kenton, Am i eading you right... heat applied last; not add flux, heat components to be soldered, apply solder to headed components (not iron). How are you going to add the solder before the heat? I'm missing something aren't I? Jon Yep, if you look at the tutorial it says align components, add heat from iron on one side of join, then add solder (they are using resin cored solder) from the other side until it forms a buttress.Although that will be adequate for electronic PCB work, it is most definitely not for kit and track soldering. If you apply heat to the parts without flux present at best you will create an oxide film that will be resistant to the solder , at worst the heat is going to melt other soldered parts (dropping off) or any other meltable materials nearby.The correct order is: bring th parts together add a small sliver/chip of solder (cut it off the wire and place it at the join with tweezers) remembering you do not need much. Flood the area of the join with flux then apply heat from the iron. You get a fizz as the flux boils off and solder melts and is drawn into the small gap between the parts. As soon as that has happened about a second withdraw the heat and allow to cool slowly - Do not be tempted to move the parts or now sub assembly until it has cooled to a temperature cold enough to place on the back of your @@@@ (especially with low-melt work)BTW I do not like resin cored solder for brass/ns kits but on the very odd occassion I have used it I have added more liquid flux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yep, if you look at the tutorial it says ... Ok.., that makes sense. I'm still to look through some C&L info to work out the solder and flux (seperate) that I want for trackwork (P4 kit)... for TOUs and droppers only... but the adding a chip of solder to the area to be worked is a good idea that I'd not considered. Now I'm a little wiser. Thanks Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Jon, I don't know what type of soldering is needed for your TOUs, but for soldering droppers to rails a conventional 60/40 electrical solder is ideal. It is, after all, an electrical joint. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 One more question, then I'm ready to start buying consumable supplies: What do you use to clean items before you prepare to solder them (which is another cleaning process?). I'm a bit stuck on what to buy for Stage 1 of the Kenton/Gingerbread process: 'clean everything before you start'. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 One more question, then I'm ready to start buying consumable supplies: What do you use to clean items before you prepare to solder them (which is another cleaning process?). I'm a bit stuck on what to buy for Stage 1 of the Kenton/Gingerbread process: 'clean everything before you start'. I tend to use a Garryflex block - you can get it in different grades. I cut it up with scapel into smaller blocks. I detest the glassfibre brushes and avoid them completely, I find the fine fibres getting in my fingers extremely irritating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerbread Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 My skin doesn't seem to be sensitive to fibreglass, so I use a fibreglass brush. Try the various alternatives, and see which one suits you best. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 So more of a scrubbing than a washing. So, if I've got this right... 1 Make sure iron is at operating temp and is clean and tinned 2 Clean surfaces to be soldered 3a Apply flux and required amount of solder or 3b Apply solder paint 4 Hold together in a stable position 5 Apply heat until flux bubbles 6 Leave to cool Everything there? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 What do you use to clean items before you prepare to solder them (which is another cleaning process?). Like so many things - it depends. It depends on how old and tarnished that brass is, it depends on how new the brass is. Old kits can be very tarnished, usually just oxidation but also greasy fingerprints or even Selotape residues. The new brass in tissue paper probably had etch resist oils coating it and once you have examined it - more fingerprints. Some kit suppliers are far worse than others- for some reason. You need to both physically clean and chemically clean. I also use a combination of Cif/Vim scouring powder; wire wool 'Brillo" pads, Garyflex, glass fibre pens to physically remove the tarnish. I then use a solvent (IP/Acetone mix to remove the grease. (Selotape glue residue should be removed earliest) Try not to handle the brass afterwards except with gloves or folded tissue paper grabs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 ... 5 Apply heat until flux bubbles ... No, apply heat until the solder flows! Depending on the temperature at which the solder melts, this may be a second or two later than the point at which the flux boils off. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerbread Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 So more of a scrubbing than a washing. So, if I've got this right... 1 Make sure iron is at operating temp and is clean and tinned 2 Clean surfaces to be soldered 3a Apply flux and required amount of solder or 3b Apply solder paint 4 Hold together in a stable position 5 Apply heat until flux bubbles 6 Leave to cool Everything there? Looks right to me (though don't mistake me for an expert). However, I would have 4 (holding together) starting before 3 and continuing until after 6 - hold it together firmly while you add solder/flux/paint, while you apply heat, and while it cools (for at least 10 seconds after you stop adding heat). Adding couple of alternative to the ones Kenton added for "cleaning" - Carrs sell a cleaner/degreaser and a surface conditioner. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 25, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2012 May I suggest the sequence should be 1,2,4,3,5,6 however if you are applying solder from a length rather than using solder cream you start applying ing heat and apply the solder when the piece is hot enough. Also using a soldering iron you may need a little solder on the iron to improve heat transfer for small details that may be enough solder. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I have several different soldering irons. I use a temperature controlled Antex for electronic circuit soldering. It also goes low enough to solder white metal kits. For heay duty stuff like soldering wires to rails with a lot of heat for a short period of time, I use a Maplin 60W soldering station. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Slight hijack - anyone got a reccomendation for a bigger (than 25w) iron? For the larger lumps of brass... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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