David Siddall Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Seriously beginning to feel the time has come to shoo the moths away from the credit card and go for a 121 kit from Westdale as my first attempt at kit-built O Gauge motive power. However... a little research (always a dangerous thing) poses a few questions. Particularly photo evidence from Stuart Mackay's 'First Generation DMUs In Colour' which suggests that, as built, 121s featured Claysonrite-type rubber windscreen/fixed window seals and oval buffers. Question 1: Can anyone tell me when the method of window installation started to change to what I assume became 'bonded internally' as featured in the kit. Quseton 2: Can anyone tell me when large Oleo buffer started to replace ovals? Question 3: Can anyone tell me when 121s started sporting small yellow warning panels? The reasons for the questions are quite simple... I'm hoping to build a reasonably accurate representation of a 121 which could co-exist with the last days of BR(W) steam?. Thanks in anticipation... David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Hi, Can't answer your question about buffers definitively but some 121's appeared new with cropped Oleos, others appear to have oval and I wouldn't bet that none ever went into traffic with full Oleos. 121's seemed to have changed buffers with amazing regularity. Got a pic of one, admittedly in the early 70's with 2 different buffers on the same end. As for warning panels I can do some digging if no-one else pitches in. I think the old adage about finding a dated photo would be worth following. HTH Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Thanks Stu... the best dated shot I've managed to find so far states 1965 and shows small yellow panels, oval buffers and (I think, though it's not terribly clear) rubber window seals. Unfortunately the pin-sharp photo of a 121 with similar characteristics in 'First Generation DMUs...' isn't dated. My dilemma is that the rubber window seals are very distinctive and, I suspect, probably one of the most obvious dating signatures for one of these units ...but they'd be a bu66er to model convincingly :-/ David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLASS-121-122-DMU-O-GAUGE-7MM-KIT-COMPLETE-WESTDALE-/260965397300?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3cc2bff334#ht_500wt_1415 Hi David I saw this last night myself, and was tempted, but OO is my Gauge, it may be worth a punt. I will have a look out some details for your questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Hi David have you seen his shot from 1st Generation DMU's book, this shot shows 55029 it is just 6 months old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 PM sent, about a man who possibly can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 ...saw this last night myself, and was tempted, but OO is my Gauge, it may be worth a punt. Thanks Craig... just checked the current Westdale price list (picked up at the Bristol O Gauge Show last month) and this kit is currently available ex-stock from Westdale themselves at £185 and a few pence - it could therefore be observed that the seller's 'buy-it-now' price is a little, how shall we say, optimistic? ...have you seen his shot from 1st Generation DMU's book, this shot shows 55029 it is just 6 months old. Am looking at it now mate - it's the one on the opposite page at the top with the small yellow panel (page 75) that's frustrating my reasearch because it isn't dated ....drat :-( My modelling plans span the final years of BR(W) steam and I'm hoping a 121 with bonded glazing (rather than those those distinctive but difficult to model rubber window seals) falls into that era? D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Dyson (onslaught832) Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Hi David, Have you also considered the Easy Build 121 kit ? I am currently building a Westdale 121 kit myself which I got as a part built S/H bargain, although mine will be finished in early 70's BFYE...........quite a nice kit, but perhaps not quite as nice as the Easy Build one. You can see my build here http://www.westernth...-121.51/page-18 if it's any help. Cheers Phill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 My dilemma is that the rubber window seals are very distinctive and, I suspect, probably one of the most obvious dating signatures for one of these units ...but they'd be a bu66er to model convincingly :-/ David Hi David I don't think it's quite such a problem, as the 121s were built with aluminium window frames that they retained all their lives - if you're looking for distinctive signature features, this is one that was unique to the 121s among all the other WR suburban types, and shared only with the contemporary LMR 115s. The 122s however had rubber seals from new - I'm not aware that any first generation DMU had bonded glazing. There's an earlier thread on this here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33629-br-hd-dmu-passenger-window-frames/ David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Dyson (onslaught832) Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Thanks Craig... just checked the current Westdale price list (picked up at the Bristol O Gauge Show last month) and this kit is currently available ex-stock from Westdale themselves at £185 and a few pence - it could therefore be observed that the seller's 'buy-it-now' price is a little, how shall we say, optimistic? D David, Have you checked what the Westdale 121 kit comes with?, some Westdale kits may need quite a few extras to complete the kit, although I must admit I'm not sure how complete the 121 kits are(as I said previously mine was S/H)................so the ebay one may not be too bad at £200 complete? Cheers Phill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 I don't think it's quite such a problem, as the 121s were built with aluminium window frames that they retained all their lives - if you're looking for distinctive signature features, this is one that was unique to the 121s among all the other WR suburban types, and shared only with the contemporary LMR 115s. The 122s however had rubber seals from new - I'm not aware that any first generation DMU had bonded glazing. There's an earlier thread on this here: http://www.rmweb.co....-window-frames/ Thanks David... I'm beginning to wonder about the content of the can I appear to have accidentally opened ;-) My first premise was that that Stuart Mackay's 'First Generation DMUs In Colour' was considered (by all sorts of folks with far more experience than me) to be something of a 'bible' on this subject and that's what I've been following for prototype guidance so far. On that basis, the photos on pages 74 and 75 show early 121s and these appear to feature Claysonrite-type rubber window seals similar to that used on cars, buses and commercial vehicles of the era (the photo at the top of page 74 gives the date it was taken as May 1961). Page 79 (the start of the 122 chapter) features two pics which suggest that in early condition 122s featured the plain flat-profile external window frame detail which shows up on later 121s and can now be seen on most (all?) those examples in preservation. I'm hoping (...if I can make some sense out of these window installation, buffers and livery variations) that my plan to build a 121 and finish it in green with small yellow warning panels will allow it to be operated with a degree of historic accuracy across a period which features the end of steam and the start of dieselisation on the Western Region of BR? If I can't I suppose I could bump the layout's timeline forward to the green/blue transition period ...but by then fully operational branchlines in the region were a bit scarce :-/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 I am currently building a Westdale 121 kit myself which I got as a part built S/H bargain, although mine will be finished in early 70's BFYE...........quite a nice kit, but perhaps not quite as nice as the Easy Build one. Interesting issue you there raise Phill - which 121 to choose? ;-) Fortunately EasyBuild and Westdale were at the recent Bristol O Gauge Show and both were kind enough to take the time to show me and to talk about their respective 121s in some detail. IMO there's a lot to commend the EasyBuild kit however they openly acknowledge that they use a Mk1 coaching stock profile for the sides which doesn't really match the primarily flat-sided 121 or 122 body shape (...and before anyone yells, yes, I know that the body profile of both types features a tumblehome towards the lower edge but it's certainly pretty flat higher up ;-). EasyBuild also acknowledge that their kit features prototypically correct flat glazing which tends to exagerate the slight tubbiness of their bodysides. And there's a further potential issue (to my eyes anyway) with the rake and angles of their driving cab windscreens. This photo of an EasyBuild 121 probably best illustrates all three issues for me ...though I appreciate that not everyone would notice or be that concerned; and that in blue/grey the side profile issue isn't quite as apparent as in green or plain blue. For comparison here's a photo of the real thing taken by Brian Daniels which I think is an excellent reference for all the shapes, angles and profiles. The Westdale offering, I think, appears to reproduce the bodyside profile quite accurately though I'm not 100% certain about their cab ends either. However the cab castings they showed me from a current kit looked very different from those featured in the photos of a Westdale 121 built and posted by Brian on Flickr - as do the bodyside window heights and position in relation to the cantrail. Brian states that the blue example photos, in which I think both issues are best illustrated, were taken in June last year of a Westdale 121 he repainted from green, the shots of which are dated 2007. There's also one other thing I would have to be mindful of, and that's the price difference between the two kits in complete form (i.e. inc' wheels, motor, gears, etc): £245 (EasyBuild); £185 (Westdale). Decisions, decision... and I still need to clear up the window installation, buffer type and warning panel issue in my own mind! Whatever... we've got two manufacturers producing 121 kits in O Gauge and that's way better than none - respect and thanks to both of them :-) David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Have you checked what the Westdale 121 kit comes with?, some Westdale kits may need quite a few extras to complete the kit, although I must admit I'm not sure how complete the 121 kits are (as I said previously mine was S/H)................so the ebay one may not be too bad at £200 complete? Looking at the enlargement of the Ebay seller's photo and comparing it with current Westdale price list information (plus my recollection of what I was shown at the Bristol show), this Ebay example seems to be what Westdale offer as standard Phill, but thanks for that, I'll bear it in mind. D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Dyson (onslaught832) Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Thank you for your reply David, I have sent you a PM regarding 121's. Cheers Phill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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