West Kirby Town: narrow gauge is coming to town.

[railwayrod]

Concrete will make the back scene rather hard to work with and besides it will make the sky pimply!

 

Rod.

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Just a bit of a progress report.  The dead section on the point is definitely the microswitch in the Tortoise motor.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't!!  Last time the Coal Tank stalled on it, I pressed the moving bit on the Tortoise (I've not a clue what it's called) and the loco moved!!  So, sometime, that's going to have to come off, be stripped down and cleaned - unless I can find a replacement motor.

 

The Coal Tank continues to stutter - it's really "doin' me 'ead in"!!!!  I thought it might be the trailing wheels shorting - took them off: no, not that!!  It might be the wheels touching the bodywork - shaved metal off obvious places: nope, not that.  I've put weights in the side tanks - doesn't help!!  I'm now suspecting poor pickups on the middle wheels, so I've tightened them up and will test them in the morning.  I've had enough for now!!!  I've spent hours checking the b****y thing.  On low speeds, it always stops in the same places, where there's a slight unevenness in the track - a gentle nudge gets it going again, but it's so frustrating!!  It may be the wheel treads have got a film of something on them, but they look clean enough.  The annoying thing is that nothing else does this - even the Ivatt tank which also has a rigid wheelbase: that's as smooth as anything - having said that, I'd better check that again in the morning!!

 

Apologies for the moan - I'm going to bed!!!  Things'll be better in the morning - so my mum used to say, bless her!!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

[PjKing1]

Sorry to hear your frustration Rod a good moan always helps though!!

 

Hope you get it sorted soon as things like this always play on the mind

 

Cheers

[Simond]

Rod

 

Loco:

 

My suggestion is that you try to establish whether it is in the pick up from wheel to motor, or track to wheel.

 

I'm assuming you have an equalised 6-coupled chassis, with pick-ups on each wheel (ignore the radial/pony axle, which I guess is just along for the ride)

 

I think I would invert the loco in a cradle and then try a pair of probes to supply juice to it wheel by wheel. This is complicated by the equalisation, and the DCC decoder that I think you have. To get around the decoder issue, try running the loco at say speed step 7, and lift it off the track when at that speed. Then without changing the controller settings, use the track supply to feed your probes, which should avoid the deceleration / acceleration issues, and give you a direct indication of continuity - it goes or it doesn't when the wires are applied. By varying the pressure, you can move the axles in the horns, and hopefully see if there is an issue with pick ups contacting the wheels. Of course, if you have a keep-alive, this isn't going to work...

If you have backscratchers, or plungers, are the wheel backs clean?

You should of course get consistent running with any two wheels powered, but I have found issues with failed wires between pick-ups, one or more plungers losing contact with the wheel back, either due to side play or vertical offset (but this is extreme, like a lump or dent in the track)

 

Track-to-wheel should be a simple case of clean both - your track obviously is, as your other stock runs ok, and I'd think it pretty obvious if there were crud on the wheels - hence concentrating on the pick-ups. But one other question, is it only in one place? There isn't a short, dead section, that your MU stock bridges, but your kettle can't?

 

Tortoise:

 

A wild guess. The output lever thingy (this is the correct technical term, you can trust me, I'm an Engineer) isn't moving symmetrically or fully on the turnout on which you're having problems, which results in it stalling before the wipers have made full contact. (Tortoises don't have micro switches inside - the switches are made by etched "brushes" shorting printed circuit board contacts - the brushes are fixed to the output lever thingy). If I'm right, anything that increases the stroke of the output lever thingy should improve matters:

 

1. Move the fulcrum up - ie away from the thingy, towards the tie-bar

2. Use thinner spring wire

3. Adjust the position of the motor relative to the tie-bar

4. Increase the voltage of the supply to the motor.

 

1 is the easiest, of course, but only if the blades still close properly.

 

HTH

Simon

[Simond]

Thanks Simon, it does say "also... rigid", so I should have spotted it.

 

Wheel by wheel, it's the only way...

 

Not a fan of juicers, very expensive sledgehammer to crack a very small walnut!

 

Best

Simon

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

The saga (and frustration) of the Coal Tank continues!!

 

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, Simon, but I've tried all that.  One thing to note, it ran perfectly when I was running it in on DC prior to fitting the chip.

 

I've checked all the track and I've got uninterrupted 16c AC supply to every piece of rail it's running on (except the point frog I've already mentioned).  The wheel treads and backs are clean.  There's electrical continuity between all 3 wheels on each side of the loco.  Applying power to each wheel on any axle provides power to the chip - the sound works and the motor turns.  I can create a short this way by touching the brake gear at the same time as the wheels but, try as I might, I can't get the brake gear to touch the wheels when it's running on the track.   There's no sand pipes or anything similar touching the track.  Turning the loco round makes no difference, either.  When I ran it the other day, every time it stuttered, I pushed it back over the piece of track it had stuttered on (with the wheels still turning) and of course it then ran over it perfectly!!!

 

What I have found, though, is that if I run it, at any speed including very slowly, but with the sound off, it runs perfectly!!

 

That, coupled with the fact it ran perfectly on DC, makes me think the chip is not getting enough power to run the motor and the sound.  Which then points me in the direction of 1) a dodgy soldered joint (or joints) in the wiring, or 2) the wiring from pickups to chip being too thin - I've used the thinnest DCC wiring.  So, the next job will be to double up that wiring and check the soldered joints while I'm at it.  Watch this space!!!

 

I've always enjoyed problem-solving in my life and I don't like giving up - but this is pushing me towards my limit!!!  I've had worse in my life - industrial disputes particularly, but they involved people, not inanimate objects like a Coal Tank and wiring!!!

 

I've even thought of reverting it to DC and selling it at Telford, but 1) I'd probably still hanker after an ex-LNWR sound-fitted push-pull loco anyway and 2) that's giving up.  It might come to that, but I've a month and a half to go so, as I said before, watch this space!!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

Edited July 11, 2016 by Dmudriver

[muddys-blues]

Go on Rod ..... you know you want to !!!!!

 

 

[Jintyman]

Hi Rod,

 

What decoder is it? and also, what motor is it?

If you are trying to run an O gauge locomotive using the smaller decoders such as an ESU V4 Loksound, the current draw from the motor with the sound switched on may be too much.

Although there are many examples of good running locomotives in O gauge using these decoders the chassis of these locos must be extremely free running with little or no drag through the gearbox.

I believe that ESU now do a mid range decoder for up to 3 Amps current draw (I'm only mentioning ESU because that's what I tend to use), but I'm sure other sound decoder manufacturers will do a slightly larger decoder without going all the way to the XL.

 

I hope that may be of help.

 

Jinty

[Dmudriver]

Hi Rod,

 

What decoder is it? and also, what motor is it?

If you are trying to run an O gauge locomotive using the smaller decoders such as an ESU V4 Loksound, the current draw from the motor with the sound switched on may be too much.

Although there are many examples of good running locomotives in O gauge using these decoders the chassis of these locos must be extremely free running with little or no drag through the gearbox.

I believe that ESU now do a mid range decoder for up to 3 Amps current draw (I'm only mentioning ESU because that's what I tend to use), but I'm sure other sound decoder manufacturers will do a slightly larger decoder without going all the way to the XL.

 

I hope that may be of help.

 

Jinty

 

Hi Jinty.

 

That's a very good point!    And I'd never thought of it because I've got this idea in my head that it was an ABC gearbox.  Well, it isn't!!  I think the motor is a Mashima and it's a worm and wheel gear box.  That could well be the answer.  Here's a pic of it when I was building it:

 

 

The chip is an ESU Loksound 1.1A which I thought would be good enough as I've used them in my DMUs: there's also one in the Ivatt Tank, which is a good deal heavier than the Coal Tank but does have a Slaters gearbox in it and runs perfectly well with the 1.1A chip.  Why did I think it's an ABC?  I pretty well standardise on them now for my kitbuilt stock and my brain was just running down that route.  I bought the kit cheap from my local model shop (part of someone's estate) and it had the motor and gearbox in it already, all set up (and running smoothly, too.)  Nevertheless, this kind of box will produce much more friction, even though the loco is pretty light, and that could well be the answer.  And to think it's been there, right in front of me, all this time!!  Doh!!  What's the emoji for kicking myself?

 

So, 3 options: 1) fit a replacement ABC gearbox, 2) get a bigger chip, 3) sell it anyway and get a new kit and have it built with an ABC gearbox.  My initial reactions: 1) won't be easy, it's a fairy flimsy chassis and an old kit anyway; 2) I'd have to check if a larger chip would fit - it's a bit restricted inside and 3) seems a good idea.  Anyway, I'll sleep on it and think about it over the next couple of days.

 

Thanks again for the suggestion, Jinty.  I suspect you've got it bang on there.

 

Rod

[Simond]

Well, this is most curious.

 

I have quite a few sound fitted locos, mix of Zimo & ESU, all fitted with the standard "H0" chips, with a range of coreless and normal motors, and I've never had anything like that. My 52xx even has a Crailcrest in it, and that must draw more than a few mA. It chuffs very happily!

 

The fact that it works perfectly with the sound turned off suggests to me that a) the loco and track (excepting that point) are entirely satisfactory, and b) the decoder isn't ok. I doubt very much that it's the wire gauge. I'm sure that a couple of inches of that very fine wire would handle half an amp for a minute or two without appreciable warming or voltage drop. That said, I've not measured either. I guess checking your soldering won't hurt, but I doubt there's a problem there either.

 

My suggestion would be a) check there isn't an intermittent short to one of the speaker wires, maybe to the body, and assuming there isn't, b) ask your supplier to check the decoder and maybe return it to ESU for correction. I have had excellent service from Howes / ESU with the odd issue I've experienced, but it did take a wee while for the decoder to make the round trip.

 

Any luck with the frog polarity switch?

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

Posts crossed in the aether!

 

Does the Mashima really draw a huge current? And does the sound push it over the top? Mmmm. I guess it could, but...

 

Edit: a dragging gearbox can't be worse than the load of a large train.

 

Best

Simon

Edited July 11, 2016 by Simond

[Dmudriver]

Hi Simon.

 

Thanks for the comments.   My responses:  I've not really run the loco with a large train - so far just the inspection saloon: it would only run with 3 plastic bogie coaches maximum, anyway.

 

This is the second chip I've had.  I had the same problems with the first one and managed to blow it while testing it.  SWD replaced it with no objection at all.  It could be the speaker wires, but I've shrink wrapped the soldered joints, so I doubt it.  I'll check them, anyway.

 

What I could do with is to check the current draw with the sound on - it's OK when stationary, the problem arises when it's running.  I've got a multimeter, but can't remember how to check amps: from my college days, I seem to remember putting it into the circuit, but how do you do that with a chip?

 

Rod

[Jintyman]

Posts crossed in the aether!

 

Does the Mashima really draw a huge current? And does the sound push it over the top? Mmmm. I guess it could, but...

 

Edit: a dragging gearbox can't be worse than the load of a large train.

 

Best

Simon

 

Hi Simon,

The gearbox is a close point to the motor for drag, this is amplified by the fact that Rod's gearbox is a simple folded up single stage gearbox, which by default unless it's set up with perfection, will produce more drag than a 2/3-stage ABC, or a helical MSC.

 

Quote: "a dragging gearbox can't be worse than the load of a large train."

 

Once a large train is actually moving, momentum then comes into the equation. A small ESU Loksound decoder will cope with a short 3amp stall current before turning its toes up, to get the train moving, therefore, the weight of the train should act like a flywheel in aiding the motor/gearbox through momentum. Whereas a dragging gearbox is a constant. The ESU decoder will not cope with a constant higher draw either, thus it will act erratically. 

 

The reason that drag is what alerted me to Rod's problem was that a friend of mine had 2 Bachmann OO Earls with sound, but one was doing exactly what Rods was doing, whilst the other was as smooth as silk, yet they both had identical ESU sound decoders in them. After looking more closely, the problematic loco was found to have some very fine thread that had wound itself onto the axle by the drive gear. It caused drag, which then caused the decoder to become erratic. I removed the fine thread and it ran as smoothly as it's brother.

 

There again, I could be wrong, I just tried to associate my own experience into the pot, just in case it was the answer.

 

 

I hope that that is the reason for you Rod, sometimes the simplest solutions can be the furthermost away. 

When I have a problem, I usually embarrass myself by asking my wife her opinion, to which she usually comes back with a nice simple solution!!!

 

Regards 

Jinty

[Simond]

Hi Rod,

 

It's ok running, sound off, and stationary, sound on... Very odd. Does tend to suggest that the chip can only manage the motor or the sound, which just seems strange to me. Particularly as the loco was alright before you chipped it.

 

In principle, you place an ammeter in series with the load you are testing, but I suspect that there will be some issues due to the wave form of the DCC and the averaging that the meter will make, so the readings will be inaccurate, but it should at least give you a comparison between sound on, and sound off, and parked & running. You just need to connect the ammeter in one of the connections from your DCC supply to the track, and make sure everything else is isolated.

 

Have a play and post your observations. We must be able to fix this!

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

David

 

Interesting. Yes, see where you're coming from. It could be the chip shutting down to protect itself, I guess. Would be a good result if a bit of fettling of the gearbox sorted it. But there is that nagging doubt about it running well before the chip was installed...

 

I'll give you a call tomorrow, all being well.

 

Best

Simon

[leopardml2341]

Left field suggestion for DCC/dragging gearbox issue:

 

If the DCC chip is really that sensitive to load, may be the simple expedient of filing a 'flat' on the motor shaft where the worm grub screw bears will remove a tight spot in the mechanism as without the 'flat' the worm gear will sit (ever so slightly) out of concentric to the shaft causing a tighter 'mesh' with the driven gear at the diametrically opposite, to the grub screw, point of the worm if that makes sense.

 

This would be less noticeable on DC, though on close inspection you may see the tight spot on each wheel revolution, as the current 'spike' would be easily hidden by the psu/controller output impedance. It may be that the dcc chip is seeing the current 'spike' as a momentary short circuit and shutting down to protect itself?

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

More work done but little progress made!!  I've put the 3x push-pull coaches on the track and run the loco with them.  If Jinty's suggestion held good (which I thought was the answer) then the stuttering should have got worse due to there being more load on the motor/chip.  It didn't!!  If anything, it seemed a bit better, but nothing significant.  So now I wonder if that is the answer.

 

I tried to measure the current used but, for whatever reason, I couldn't.  I wired my meter in series via outputs J and K (separately) and got no reaction - the setting was the 10A one (at 200mA setting no power got through).  The loco ran as it had before but the meter showed no changes - just 0.00.  It's a fairly cheap digital one and it's fine for everything else.

 

What is interesting, though, is that the loco stopped a couple of times at very slow speed with the sound on.  A slight nudge sideways both times got it going again, which points me back to pickup problems.  So, watch this space - again!!

 

It's also been suggested to me that it might be the chip settings for load compensation/feedback, etc.  That's something I'll also look into (after the pickup checks!)

 

More soon.

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Just a bit of an update on the Coal Tank sound saga.

 

I tried the load compensation test (CV56 + 0) and still got a couple of stutters.  So now I am more or less convinced that it's down to an interruption in the power supply to the chip.

 

How the supply is interrupted is the big question, though, and that is where my attention will turn next (or is that "again"?!!).

 

I've also been working on a template for the backscene buildings: this is how it looks on the layout:

 

 

However, I'm not going to get much done in the next 2/3 weeks as "life" is taking over, but will be back with more soon.

 

Rod

 

PS   I'll still be following various threads on RMweb, though!!

 

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

I'm back in circulation after a few weeks of celebrating a significant birthday and visiting Switzerland twice and also North Wales and Scotland!! 

 

I went in my shed soon after I got back to check whether the roof had leaked (it hadn't!!) and when I looked back at the door I saw this:

 

 

My immediate reaction was "Day of the Triffids" (even though it's bamboo!!).  Does anyone else remember that book and film?   [That's showing my age!!!]

 

Anyway, I've got the stock back on the layout and did manage a few test runs to the FY and back - after I'd cleaned all the track - so work will start again properly soon.  First, though, I think I'll have an operating session - weather permitting!! - and I'll try and post a few pics.

 

Work is progressing on the backscene buildings but more on that when there's something to show.

 

More soon.

 

Rod.

 

 

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

 

 

My immediate reaction was "Day of the Triffids" (even though it's bamboo!!).  Does anyone else remember that book and film?   [That's showing my age!!!]

 

 

I remember the book & TV series starring John Duttine

Edited August 10, 2016 by Phill Dyson (onslaught832)

[Tove]

I remember the book & TV series starring John Duttine

I remember the TV series as a kid,but in particular one scene where a woman was trying to open a box of washing powder thinking it was food....!!

 

Brian.

 

 

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

In August last year, I replaced the wooden strips which hold on the covers for the outside part of the railway, intending to cover them with gutter tape (I think that's the right word) to protect them.  After 12 months, I've finally done it!! - yesterday, when the weather was still nice and warm and sunny.  Here's last year's pic:

 

 

and here's today's 2, taken, appropriately enough, in the rain, with the tapes doing what they're intended to do!

 

 

I had an operating session later yesterday following that work.  I didn't take any pics then, but have done this morning.  First up, the parcels train waits for the road to depart:

 

 

It will leave before the 115 which is in platform 2.  The Thumper is stabled for now:

 

 

After the parcels has left, the 3-car 108 arrives, coupled to the 131, which will depart on its own after uncoupling:

 

 

A view of the DMUs from the concourse:

 

 

After a while, the Thumper gets the road from the siding:

 

 

And finally, the inspection saloon arrives, propelled by the 50, and is routed into platform 1:

 

 

I'm back!  More soon.

 

Rod

 

PS  The pics do impress on me the need to get on with the scenery!!!

[muddys-blues]

Drool, drool, drool, drool.

 

Craig.

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

It was a nice day today so I had an operating session and did some videos while I was at it.  There were about 7 seperate ones which I've combined into 1: I warn you, it's just over 20 minutes long!!!

 

There are one or two continuity issues, but I hope you enjoy it nevertheless.  The main operation is the reversal of the parcels train, with DMUs arriving and departing during it.  Enjoy!!

 

Here's the link: 

 

Rod

 

Edit:   PS  Apologies for the not quite level camera!!

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dmudriver

[Jintyman]

Hi Rod,

 

Really enjoyed that video.

A very nice group of movements that make it so watchable.

 

Jinty