West Kirby Town: narrow gauge is coming to town.

[Dmudriver]

Rod

 

I've found this on the internet, I hope this helps

 

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/products/dennis-rs-fire-engine-greater-manchester-fire-brigade-76dn003

 

Jim

Hi Jim.

 

Thanks so much for the link.  I've had a look at it and it doesn't specify the scale.

 

I then searched on the site, using 1:43 scale and "Fire" in Theme and it doesn't appear.  Did a similar search using 1:76 and it does appear.  So it's a 00 one, unfortunately.

 

Thanks for looking, though - I appreciate it.

 

Rod

[Jintyman]

Hello Rod, ooh the Park Royal 103 looks nice, do you know it provenance?

 

I have a Worsley Works etched sides and ends to build in the stash.

 

Best regards

Craig

 

07E33DF7-789B-4521-8198-9849E5557DBB.jpeg

 

 

 

That's it, another Bog Cart on Craig's list.

Craig's List, isn't that American???? Oh better not go there!!!

 

 

Nice job on the coaches too. Nice and subtle as coaches and passenger stock were kept sort of reasonable!!!

 

Jinty

[Simond]

Rod

 

There are a couple of 1/43 fire vehicles on the Oxford website - a Landrover and a couple of vans.

 

There might be a gap in the resin kit market there!

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

eBay 1/43 fire engine - there are a few European vehicles that could concievably have been found in Wirral suburbia - along with some Russian & US ones that really couldn’t!

[Dmudriver]

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen.

 

To widen the search I opened a thread on the Road Vehicles forum - here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140409-fire-engine-for-0-gauge/  

 

I've had a couple of replies so far, one of which referred me to a model fire engine site.  It looks fantastic!!  The only (slight) problem is that the larger models are to 1:48 scale.

 

Has anyone experience of using 1:48 scale models on an 0 gauge layout?  By my reckoning they're about 10% small but I would think you could get away with it by judicious positioning of the models.  That is, not parked in the station, which is 1:43 scale, or next to a Land Rover which is also1:43.   Maybe coming in through the gate?

 

Any comments will be gratefully received.

 

With thanks in anticipation.

 

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Hello Rod, ooh the Park Royal 103 looks nice, do you know it provenance?

 

I have a Worsley Works etched sides and ends to build in the stash.

 

Best regards

Craig

 

07E33DF7-789B-4521-8198-9849E5557DBB.jpeg

Hi Craig.

 

The owner has told me that it's a BR Models kit - all brass - but unfortunately no longer available.  I'll still take some pics of it for you, though.

 

 

Rod

[Simond]

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen.

 

To widen the search I opened a thread on the Road Vehicles forum - here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140409-fire-engine-for-0-gauge/  

 

I've had a couple of replies so far, one of which referred me to a model fire engine site.  It looks fantastic!!  The only (slight) problem is that the larger models are to 1:48 scale.

 

Has anyone experience of using 1:48 scale models on an 0 gauge layout?  By my reckoning they're about 10% small but I would think you could get away with it by judicious positioning of the models.  That is, not parked in the station, which is 1:43 scale, or next to a Land Rover which is also1:43.   Maybe coming in through the gate?

 

Any comments will be gratefully received.

 

With thanks in anticipation.

 

 

Rod

Rod,

 

I bought a likely looking 1/48 light truck - military kit - but rapidly came to the conclusion it really looked too small. It would work with a bit of forced perspective, at the back of a layout corner, for example, but that’s not going to fly for you!

 

I thought Radley models might have something suitable, but doesn’t appear so. Might be a source of bashable bits however.

 

https://radleymodels.com/gallery-our-clients-models.html

 

Best

Simon

[Park]

Eligor do some good wagons and there are some UK fleets in the lineup. They do quite a few fire appliances though as you have found they are all European. Maybe a change of signwriting is needed, though not sure as they are the latest Scania and Renault models so not fitting with slam door stock

 

I did have some other thoughts in that maybe they only show in the doors of the engine house so less obvious. Another thought was portray it as 'being built' as you might then have a visiting Landie and then plenty of options for construction vehicles. It seemed to take forever to build the fire station at the time. The leisure centre took ages as well back in the day

 

I bought some Eligor models as I want my layout to portray a preserved depot with stock being delivered by low loader. The trailer is a 1:50 with a 1:43 tractor unit, but with a 20T brake van on not that apparent 

[Dmudriver]

Hi Simon and Park.  Thanks for your responses.

 

Simon has confirmed my fears, even though your trailer, Park, doesn't look to be to a different scale.

 

So, I've taken some advice from a reply on my other thread and I've bought a Dinky ERF on ebay!!  It's been used but looks in pretty good condition: it's 1:43 scale and in my time frame; I just need a Land Rover now.  I've committed myself, haven't I?!!!  

 

Now I've got to research fire station layouts, training tower uses and space required, etc.  All fascinating new stuff to learn about!!

 

Then design and build to fit the space I've got.   Which will mainly be done after I've finished the scenery round the signal box.  Roll on the quiet time after Christmas!!!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

[raymw]

Make sure you get the right landrover for the year. Headlight position and breakfast are the obvious give-aways.

[Dmudriver]

Make sure you get the right landrover for the year. Headlight position and breakfast are the obvious give-aways.

I'll have to ask your advice for that, raymw!!  I'll put up some pics of the possibilities later.

 

Breakfast????    Headlight position I understand!!

 

Rod

[raymw]

Breakfast - just a test of Landrover knowledge - at least you don't call 'em jeeps.

[Simond]

I bought my first Landy in 1986 (a 1952 S1a, which had been retrofitted with a 3500 P6B (5-star!!!) engine) had a 2-door Range Rover (dog) and am currently on my third Disco. The only time I haven’t had a Landy was when we lived in India.

 

but the breakfast reference has got me stumped.

 

Best

Simon

 

 

PS, this

 

 

Looks to be a Series 1b from the mid-late 50’s. Door tops and lack of inset “rim” around the loadspace give it away as an S1, it looks too long for an S1a which were only 80” wheelbase. The bit of panel between the door and the rear wheel arch is longer. The radiator grill and inset headlights also date it.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Simond

[jcarta]

I believe the breakfast reference is something to do with the headlamps behind the grill.....

 

Although I may be wrong.....

 

Jim

[Park]

First vehicle was a 2a SWB and for the las 15 years a 110 CSW so know a bit about Landies which is why the 110 is lurking behind the Scania

 

Breakfast is a new one on me, but guess it's something to do with the folk law about the Aussie's using the front grill when it was metal for an instant 'barbie'. Also the one about go explore in a Landie, come home in a Toyota

[Simond]

I believe the breakfast reference is something to do with the headlamps behind the grill.....

 

Although I may be wrong.....

 

Jim

They were very early. My S1 had an invert “T” grille as did all the later series 1 & 2’s.

 

Best

Simon

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Putting aside Land Rovers - but don't stop, it's fascinating!! - I've made mock ups of the fire station and training tower and put them on the layout.  I think this will work!!  Here's 4 pics from various viewpoints:

 

    

 

There will be a road round the back from the bridge and once I've got staff/visitor car parks, room for turning and room round the tower for training, I think it will fill that corner nicely.

 

Here's a close up of the 4 cars: the 2 on the left are a Hillman Avenger (my first company car!! - although it was blue) and a Ford Escort Mark 2 1.6 Harrier (both Corgi Limited Editions): 

 

 

The next one is the Fiat 500L and I said earlier that it looked a lot bigger than the earlier 500 - here's a comparison:

 

 

I know the actual L is bigger than the original 500 but I didn't think the difference was that great.  This is from the Top Gear review of the 500L:  "it’s 500mm longer, more than 200mm wider and 120mm taller than a Fiat Panda."   Yet they both claim to be to 1:43 scale - here's a pic of the underneath of each, both clearly stating 1:43:

 

 

Anyway, on the layout, I'll keep them separate!!

 

So, subject to a bit more research on the layout of a fire station site, it looks like I've decided on my corner filler!!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

Edited December 17, 2018 by Dmudriver

[colin penfold]

Looks good Rod. I think fire stations have the main vehicle doors facing the exit road, so you will need to design the roadway accordingly if you want to have the doors on an elevation you can see. Sorry if you had thought of this already.

[Regularity]

Bit worried about that training tower: would down in a matter of moments...

 

(Hat, coat, etc...)

 

What I can’t understand is how autocorrect turned brake lights into beakfast.

[Dmudriver]

Just a thought - there's me going on about the relative sizes of the 2 Fiats and the 500L is way out of my time frame!!!!

 

It was the price that attracted me!!!  Didn't think about the era!!

 

Dohhh!!

 

Rod

 

 

PS  Thought about that as I lay in the dentist's chair this morning as he was putting 5 injections into me!  Takes your mind off it!!

Edited December 18, 2018 by Dmudriver

[PhilMortimer]

OT again and back to Land Rovers....... - Sorry

 

Series Land Rovers can be a nightmare to model accurately as no two were the same! This is particularly true of the series 2, 2a and 3 vehicles, due to the ready interchangeability of body parts and other components, and for the practice of BL/LR to gradually introduce modifications on the production line and / or use up old parts in the parts bin, rather than have a step change with the introduction of the new model. E.g., some early Series 2 models still had the two litre engine from the S1, Some Series 2a had the headlights in the inner rad panel, others had them on the wings, and still others had wing mounted headlights, but the "bug-eye" versions. Gear boxes have been exchanged and updated, as have brake systems, etc. S2 and 2a's had deeper sill panels, but during the 1970's, these were replaced with shallower ones on S3's and many older vehicles were updated to match. Plus, there is quite a big community involved in "modding" LR vehicles, aided by the ready availability of original and pattern parts and the ability to fit upgraded parts. This has resulted in a lot of "Bitsa's" out there, but has also helped in keeping so many vehicles in existence and on the road long after contemporary vehicles had disappeared. However, not all are as they seem. Many vehicles purporting to be S2's from the 1960's have had new chassis frames, modern TDi engines, new bulkheads and other body parts, et. which blur the lines a lot. Sometimes, the only thing original is the VIn #!

 

Depending upon the era in which the layout is set, which if I understand correctly, West Kirkby town is et in the late 70's to late 80's, Series 1's (especially the early 80 inch vehicles), would probably have faded from front line commercial service by that time, to be replaced by the more familiar barrel wasted S2, 2a's or 3's. There is very little interchangeability between the earlier S1's and the later models (S1's are flat sided, S2, 2a and 3 (and the later 90's and 110's) are all barrel wasted. Both Oxford Diecast and Carmarama do various S2 and S3 versions in both short and long wheelbase, in 1:43 scale, including some used in the fire services. The Oxford Diecast ones are a bit finer IMHO, but both can be repainted to get what you need.

 

Yes, I'm a geek, but I've been around Land Rovers along time - learned to drive on one when I was about 12 and learned to use them for what they were designed for - basically capable working farm or commercial vehicles. I still have both my RHD S3 LWB station wagon and early 110, which came with me to the US. Both still do sterling service carting things around and if you look in the back, you would know for certain that they are working vehicles Still, having the wheel on the "wrong" side is always good for confusing the locals.....

 

Apologies for the diversion - back to the topic.

Edited December 18, 2018 by PhilMortimer

[Dmudriver]

Looks good Rod. I think fire stations have the main vehicle doors facing the exit road, so you will need to design the roadway accordingly if you want to have the doors on an elevation you can see. Sorry if you had thought of this already.

Thanks for that, Colin.  I hadn't consciously thought of it but I've since looked on Google Earth at 3 or 4 station sites and, yes, they go directly onto a road - often a main road.  However, West Kirby's fire station was on a side road but only a short distance to a main road.  This screenshot shows the layout, although it is after it had closed (the building is marked with the blue cross) - hence the cars parked on the forecourt:

 

 

The pic also shows how close the fire station was to the railway station.  It was a 3-bay station whereas mine will be just single but the layout should fit my space quite well.  

 

At least, that's the plan at the moment!!   Watch this space!!

 

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

OT again and back to Land Rovers....... - Sorry

 

Series Land Rovers can be a nightmare to model accurately as no two were the same! This is particularly true of the series 2, 2a and 3 vehicles, due to the ready interchangeability of body parts and other components, and for the practice of BL/LR to gradually introduce modifications on the production line and / or use up old parts in the parts bin, rather than have a step change with the introduction of the new model. E.g., some early Series 2 models still had the two litre engine from the S1, Some Series 2a had the headlights in the inner rad panel, others had them on the wings, and still others had wing mounted headlights, but the "bug-eye" versions. Gear boxes have been exchanged and updated, as have brake systems, etc. S2 and 2a's had deeper sill panels, but during the 1970's, these were replaced with shallower ones on S3's and many older vehicles were updated to match. Plus, there is quite a big community involved in "modding" LR vehicles, aided by the ready availability of original and pattern parts and the ability to fit upgraded parts. This has resulted in a lot of "Bitsa's" out there, but has also helped in keeping so many vehicles in existence and on the road long after contemporary vehicles had disappeared. However, not all are as they seem. Many vehicles purporting to be S2's from the 1960's have had new chassis frames, modern TDi engines, new bulkheads and other body parts, et. which blur the lines a lot. Sometimes, the only thing original is the VIn #!

 

Depending upon the era in which the layout is set, which if I understand correctly, West Kirkby town is et in the late 70's to late 80's, Series 1's (especially the early 80 inch vehicles), would probably have faded from front line commercial service by that time, to be replaced by the more familiar barrel wasted S2, 2a's or 3's. There is very little interchangeability between the earlier S1's and the later models (S1's are flat sided, S2, 2a and 3 (and the later 90's and 110's) are all barrel wasted. Both Oxford Diecast and Carmarama do various S2 and S3 versions in both short and long wheelbase, in 1:43 scale, including some used in the fire services. The Oxford Diecast ones are a bit finer IMHO, but both can be repainted to get what you need.

 

Yes, I'm a geek, but I've been around Land Rovers along time - learned to drive on one when I was about 12 and learned to use them for what they were designed for - basically capable working farm or commercial vehicles. I still have both my RHD S3 LWB station wagon and early 110, which came with me to the US. Both still do sterling service carting things around and if you look in the back, you would know for certain that they are working vehicles Still, having the wheel on the "wrong" side is always good for confusing the locals.....

 

Apologies for the diversion - back to the topic.

Hi Phil.

 

No need to apologise, I find it all quite fascinating!!

 

These are the 2 LRs I am looking at:

 

  

 

The first one seems to fit my time scale quite nicely and I think it is a rescue-fitted vehicle. The second (which Simon had already posted above) is older but it seems to me to be a pump.  Further, the reg. no. on the second is certainly much earlier than the first ; the later, being an "N" suffix indicates 1975-76.

 

From your experience, is the older vehicle really likely to have still been in public service by the late 70s?  I reckon it would be at last 20 years old by then - well, the original bits would be!!.

 

 

Rod

[PhilMortimer]

Rod,

 

No problems. And by the by, thanks for posting about your magnificent layout - it is a thread I follow diligently, albeit from afar on the other side of the Atlantic.

 

The first vehicle (N Reg) is a series 3 long wheelbase hard top (though it could be back dated to an earlier S2a with a little work). The style of grille and shallow sills under the side doors are the giveaways. Series 3's were constructed from 1971 to 1985, so an N reg (Aug 1974 to July 1975) is a valid registration mark for this vehicle. I would expect a service life of 10-15 years, so an N reg vehicle could probably be expected to be in line service from the mid 70's to the late '80's. I can certainly remember series 3 vehicles at our local fire station in the late eighties and early 90's, though they may have been later registration marks. In most cases, they were primarily used as support vehicles, although some were fitted with pumps for use as small mobile fire fighting appliances for light fire fighting duties (such as moorland fires, trashcan fires, etc). If you look at some of the news footage of the Iran Embassy Raid (1980), you will see some S3 fire service vehicles in attendance, along with Police S3 LWB station wagons. So, yes, I think you could well place this model in any fire station setting from the early 70's right through to the end of the eighties, and possibly a little beyond, although they would likely be being supplanted by more modern and capable 90's and 110's at this stage, with the S3's likely being relegated to backup duties at this point. The model vehicle appears to capture the basic shape well, though the fit of the doors looks as good as on the real thing! I would suggest that the D rings on the bumpers and the windscreen hinges are a little over scale and might need some work.The wheel centres don't look quite right for a series land rover either - too modern. I can probably get some pictures from my own S3 station wagon to help if you need.

 

In terms of the other vehicle, the S1 pump, I would be surprised if it were still in front line service by the mid 1970's. The last S1 was built in 1958, so by the mid 70's, many S1's would be approaching 20 years old at best, as you have already said. At that age, I would have expected them to have been replaced by more modern S2 / 2a or S3 versions. Some remote rural fire stations may have still had an S1 as a support / backup vehicle tucked away somewhere, but most would have had the pump and other fire fighting equipment removed and been sold out of service. Some private fire fighting units (such as at industrial plants may have retained their S1 vehicles for longer, but by the 80's they would have been getting rare.

 

Anyhow, hope this helps. Let me know if you need any thing else.

 

Cheers,

 

Phil

Edited December 19, 2018 by PhilMortimer

[Hal Nail]

Atlas Editions do a Tintin Dennis fire engine. It’s a bit squashed and a bit crude and at the typical price on eBay I suspect a non starter but the front could be used inside a fire station.

 

Ebro do a Ford Thames Firefly but it’s too early for your period.

 

I’ve been watching the Minder, Sweeney, Professionals triple bill on Itv4 recently - purely for research purposes! I think your evocative layout is crying out for a transit van with a Rover chasing it...

 

British lorries in 1:43 is a glaring gap generally given the recent interest in O gauge.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Hal Nail