Identifying Liveries from black and white photographs

[Weaselfish]

Good evening.

 

I've started working on a Wills GWR large Prairie kit and want to finish it off in post-World War II condition. I've found a photograph of 8108 on the excellent Warwickshire Railways website as a suitable prototype. Here's the link (I didn't copy the photo in case I infringed copyright):

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrha1408.htm

 

The only snag is that I'm unsure as to whether the livery is post-war green or wartime black. The engine's filthy condition doesn't help much and I've noticed that black and white photos of the period don't always clearly show up the difference between black and green-painted areas on GWR locos.

 

My own guess is that 8108 is still painted black - there doesn't seem to be any change in shade between the cab roof and the cab and tank sides (if anything the side tanks seem darker than the cab roof) and the shoddily-cleaned GWR transfers look quite worn and faded, implying that they've been on for a few years. However I don't claim that this is more than a reasonable guess. If anybody has any observations on the matter I'd be very interested.

[Adrian Wintle]

My guess is that it would have been painted green when rebuilt in 1939 and probably never got a repaint, just a change of transfers, so it would still be in green. This is no more or less a geuss than yours, though...

 

Adrian

[Guest dilbert]

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer, but looking at the photo and the caption that accompanies this :

• the rear buffer beam should be red, but is completely caked in crap - it's not easy to distinguish this with the overall grime of the loco
  
• the chocolate colour of the coaching is equally filthy when compared to the loco
  

My take is that given the loco was outshopped in 1939, and didn't have to go for major repairs to Swindon, it would have maintained GWR green (due to wartime austerity measures).

 

The colouring of the bodywork surrounding the transfers also suggests a green background rather than black (the areas surrounding the GWR lettering buffed prior to application). In any case, given the overall aspect of the loco if you wish to depict this in the same condition as the photo, there will be a lot of muck to be applied... dilbert

[Weaselfish]

Thank you both. That's helped a lot. I hadn't given it a thught that the 'cleaned' areas on the side tanks had been buffed to apply the transfers. I'm going to go for green and and the multiple layers of dirt. Now where's that Tim Shackleton weathering book? Thanks again Adrian and dilbert.

[Classsix T]

I hope Mr.Fish that your thread title and tail end of your OP meant you are prepared to receive posts in the wider spectrum (cough) to similar quandaries, if not, apologies offered.

I had a similar query over a mono picture in a mag recently, I in my ignorance discounted the caption stating BR Green and believed it to be blue, how wrong I was.

Monochromatic reproduction can be a funny game as it's "black" perception is the same as red. Thus I have seen mono printed copy where a reproduced panchromatic image has had the warning panel yellow darker than rail grey (SF 47 roof) simply because of the "red" content within.

Any print shop worth their salt should use filters to extract the cyan channel for mono reproduction but in your case, dark green and black would appear similar hence your dilemma.

 

C6T.

[edcayton]

To be fair, I can't always tell green from black in colour photo's.

 

Ed

[Classsix T]

To be fair, I can't always tell green from black in colour photo's.

 

Ed

You might benefit from colour tinted glasses Ed. I know of Folk who have.

 

C6T.

[Weaselfish]

To be fair, I can't always tell green from black in colour photo's.

 

Ed

It's a minefield. 8700 was still running with the pre-war roundel upto the very late '50s at least, which implies the pre-war green livery. But I saw some colour photos of it in one of the railway mags a couple of years ago (I forget which one) from around 1958-59 where the obviously very faded and weathered paint wasa shade of blueish-black. And then we're into dyes in colour film, reproduction printing in magazines...

[Il Grifone]

I can remember actually seeing a 97xx in the late fifties, still bearing the GWR shirt button. The colour was presumably originally green, but she appeared black (ie dirty dark grey!). The GWR loco colour was always green, but black was used during the war due to shortages. However, I have read the comment of a painter from one of the absorbed railways (MSWJR?) that the quantity of paint supplied by Swindon would require thinning so much that the loco concerned (Dean Goods IIRC) would turn black as soon as she was steamed and did!

[Weaselfish]

I hope Mr.Fish that your thread title and tail end of your OP meant you are prepared to receive posts in the wider spectrum (cough) to similar quandaries, if not, apologies offered.

I had a similar query over a mono picture in a mag recently, I in my ignorance discounted the caption stating BR Green and believed it to be blue, how wrong I was.

Monochromatic reproduction can be a funny game as it's "black" perception is the same as red. Thus I have seen mono printed copy where a reproduced panchromatic image has had the warning panel yellow darker than rail grey (SF 47 roof) simply because of the "red" content within.

Any print shop worth their salt should use filters to extract the cyan channel for mono reproduction but in your case, dark green and black would appear similar hence your dilemma.

 

C6T.

Sorry Classsix, I missed this one for my earlier reply. I'm interested to hear anything on this subject. I know absolutely nothing about the chemical/scientific background and every bit helps me to know more about what I'm looking at. Thanks for your input.

[M.I.B]

I'm interested as to what's going on in the bunker area! Will start a post elsewhere tho so as not to hijack this.tly

 

And for my tuppence worth - it's green based on the roof and number plate being slightly darker under the same amount of dirt.

[buffalo]

I'm interested as to what's going on in the bunker area!...

Didn't notice another thread, but it looks like a hand poking out of the cab directing the pep pipe onto the coal, presumably to damp down the dust when running buinker-first.

 

Nick

[Coach bogie]

Good evening.

 

I've started working on a Wills GWR large Prairie kit and want to finish it off in post-World War II condition. I've found a photograph of 8108 on the excellent Warwickshire Railways website as a suitable prototype. Here's the link (I didn't copy the photo in case I infringed copyright):

 

 

 

Beware. 81xx had smaller driving wheels compared to the 61XX

 

The 81xx appeared less than a year before war broke out. They were fitted with side shutters from new and are unlikely to have received the attention of the paint brush unless a works visit was required. I would suggest green was retained throughout. Considering there were tank engines still with the GWR roundel in the 1960's, a repaint was unlikely.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Weaselfish]

Thanks everyone. This has been very helpful.

 

MIKE: Yep, the 81XXs had 5'6" wheels as against 5'8" for the 41/51/61XXs. Gibson and Markits don't do 5'6" GWR wheels, but 5'6" and 5'8" translate into 4mm as 22.00mm and 22.64mm respectively. Gibsons list their 5'6" wheels as 22.6mm, so it's a compromise I can live with. I won't be so cavalier if I attempt a 31XX though!

[coachmann]

Green or black, it's what you want it to be. The rest is pure speculation.

[Coach bogie]

Thanks everyone. This has been very helpful.

 

MIKE: Yep, the 81XXs had 5'6" wheels as against 5'8" for the 41/51/61XXs. Gibson and Markits don't do 5'6" GWR wheels, but 5'6" and 5'8" translate into 4mm as 22.00mm and 22.64mm respectively. Gibsons list their 5'6" wheels as 22.6mm, so it's a compromise I can live with. I won't be so cavalier if I attempt a 31XX though!

 

It would not concern me either. A well used 61xx would visit the wheel lathe on a regular basis to the point where the turned down wheels of a 61xx were a similar size to a new 81XX.

 

My uncle worked in the factory. As a picky teenager I would moan that my Castles and Kings both had Romford 26mm drivers (pre 27mm becoming available) - both 6'6". What is the problem? he asked. The limit of turning on a Castle would basically match a new King tyre. This was confirmed with City of Truro in 1985 whose tyres were turned to the final limit, resulting in an overall diameter much less than the 6' 8 1/2" at new.

 

I have never been concerned about the odd mm since.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[TheSignalEngineer]

Resurrecting the topic a bit I just found this picture of 5173 in lined black with a very plain British Railways in the tanks

 

http://transportarchiveimages.zenfolio.com/p288012571/h15a279d#h1286d73

 

Then 8100 in plain grot with a Swindon version of British Railways

 

http://transportarchiveimages.zenfolio.com/p288012571/h1286D73#h1c92a4a3

 

 

[Trainshed Terry]

You might benefit from colour tinted glasses Ed. I know of Folk who have.

 

C6T.

Would that be rose tinted glasses then.

 

BYE!

[EddieB]

To be fair, I can't always tell green from black in colour photo's.

 

Ed

Very true.

 

Aside from difficulties posed by generous helpings of "weathering" applied to the prototype, green is the colour that most colour emulsions tend to have the most difficulty in reproducing.  In most reversal (slide) films, the green layer is sandwiched between the red and blue layers, which make it the most critical at the reversal/colour developer stages.  Kodachrome, though using a different (non substantiative) structure, where the dye-couplers are not contained within the emulsions, was notorious for "clogging up" greens when slightly under-exposed.  On top of which, ageing frequently tends toward blue-green casts.

 

Telling GWR or BR green from black - or even Rail Blue - can often be quite challenging.