robmcg Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 As I've stated, you really do need to arrange a demonstration before making up your mind if you have been contemplating making the purchase. It's almost impossible to get a true and faithful record of the sound of the Hornby model on a home video camera and especially after also being uploaded onto Youtube. Don't take my word for it, don't judge the Hornby model from my video alone - do have a listen yourself. It's not good but it's perhaps not as bad to everyone as I judge it to be myself. I think what is most alarming is that a glance at Hornby's schedule for 2010 shows 'Sir Ronald Matthews', another sound-fitted A4 release imminent (as well as another Duchess among several others) when they really haven't got this one right yet. I agree that recorded sound can be misleading. Even the very best sound chips have yet to achieve the difference in the length and volume of a 'chuff' sound as a loco 'links up' , but I daresay it will come. Well, I hope so. For anyone interested here is a good clip of an A4 passing at modest speed.. demonstrating the relationship between exhaust and speed for an A4. ... and that characteristic 3-cylinder 'beat'. and of course there are some A4 things which would be VERY hard to model! 60009 at speed and platform announcement... <g> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lSYDbYrXIo&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleras Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 I've done my share of knocking Hornby's sound-fitted A4 'Herring Gull' so I think it's only fair to show the said locomotive in action on the Selby Garden Railway. I must admit that outdoors with the space to really let it go, she does sound far better than she does on the rolling road setup indoors. If you would like to compare the sound, then view the rolling road video posted previously and take note of how she sounds at speed step 28. Then view the video below of her in action outdoors - she is running at that same speed throughout but sounds so much better. NOTE: The first two minutes of the following video shows Herring Gull in non-sound action - worth viewing it all in order to appreciate how she actually sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 I've done my share of knocking Hornby's sound-fitted A4 'Herring Gull' so I think it's only fair to show the said locomotive in action on the Selby Garden Railway. I must admit that outdoors with the space to really let it go, she does sound far better than she does on the rolling road setup indoors. If you would like to compare the sound, then view the rolling road video posted previously and take note of how she sounds at speed step 28. Then view the video below of her in action outdoors - she is running at that same speed throughout but sounds so much better. NOTE: The first two minutes of the following video shows Herring Gull in non-sound action - worth viewing it all in order to appreciate how she actually sounds. I agree it does sound better than the previous clips but whats a Kylchap Double chimney captured sound doing in a model of a single chimney A4, a clear lack of research there me thinks. Its a pity we did not get to hear the chime whistle while on the move as this sounds completely different to that when static. This I remember was a big minus point on the SWD release. I would also have liked to have heard it starting away in order to pick out the distintive 3 cylinder beat. I have maintained an active interest in A4 sound releases as Im nearing the end of an O gauge build example. but I feel there is still some way to go before I would commmit to fitting it with a sound chip. Even after taking into account the limitations of Youtube sound transmissions everything I have heard thus far is not worth the money Cheers Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 and of course there are some A4 things which would be VERY hard to model! 60009 at speed and platform announcement... <g> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lSYDbYrXIo&feature=related Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time, that! :icon_clap: :icon_clap: :icon_clap: :icon_clap: Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time, that! Dave. I could not agree more simply spine tingling. Let us hope its not too long before No 9 is back with us. I have to take my hat off to John Cameron, until the recent arrival of "Bittern", No 9 had been the only constant reminder of how A4s looked in the late 50 and early 60's. The man deserves a Knighthood Cheers Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I see the last posting on this is a week ago and I have been reading the comments with interest as I have recently acquired a Hornby Railroad "Falcon" to which a SWD soound chip has been added. Much of the criticism of "Herring Gull" appears to be that the chuff rate is wrong and I agree that it is on the posted videos. However, no-one has mentioned that this is adjustable - at least it is on all my steam, sound locos (although I do not have one with a Hornby chip). A question I have is this: why is there a CV to adjust the rate of slowing of the chuffs as the speed of the loco increases? Surely, in real life, the chuff rate is fixed so on an A4 there would be six beats per revolution of the wheels whether the train was travelling at walking pace or full speed? I have noticed on sound equipped steam locos that most sound the same if obtained from the same source. Even with different sources, the application of the brakes seems to be identical and, in my opinion, much too prominent. The sound on my steam locos has been obtained from three different suppliers - SWD, Digitrains and Olivia's - and they are all different. Much more interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I agree the sound of brakes is commonly too loud with sound chips, but I presume they can be 'edited'. Equally the 'chuff' sounds should be directly proportional to speed, and the sound of each 'chuff' should be suitable for the cutoff position, a longer deeper noise at wide cutoff when starting. ... but given that even the very best chip designers have barely embraced rolling and low throttle steam running, so there is a way to go yet! IMHO one would need a complete sound studio connected to a model engine to achieve anything approaching realism, and still no loud rolling noises of carriages unless added to suit individual situations. I add web-source sounds to some of my videos using WinXP, but certain proponents of DCC sound deem my dubbed sounds 'dishonest'. Ah well. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I agree the sound of brakes is commonly too loud with sound chips, but I presume they can be 'edited'. Equally the 'chuff' sounds should be directly proportional to speed, and the sound of each 'chuff' should be suitable for the cutoff position, a longer deeper noise at wide cutoff when starting. ... but given that even the very best chip designers have barely embraced rolling and low throttle steam running, so there is a way to go yet! IMHO one would need a complete sound studio connected to a model engine to achieve anything approaching realism, and still no loud rolling noises of carriages unless added to suit individual situations. I add web-source sounds to some of my videos using WinXP, but certain proponents of DCC sound deem my dubbed sounds 'dishonest'. Ah well. Rob Dishonest or not, I love what you have done. Who said the camera never lies! The brake sounds on my locos are adjustable but only within limits which, too, are different on each one. It will be interesting to see (and hear) how manufacturers develop this facility. Harold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 ... The brake sounds on my locos are adjustable but only within limits which, too, are different on each one. It will be interesting to see (and hear) how manufacturers develop this facility. Harold. Indeed. With Hornby announcing several new steam sound models for 2010, including more 3-cylinder engines like the 'Schools' , one can only admire their bravery. The 'Castle' and 5MT engines ought to allow comparable exhaust noises. I would have thought that the exhaust sounds of starting and rolling under light load would exist on sound files of preserved-current steam locos, but it would be hard to render these recordings free from extraneous or unwanted effects. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Can I ask something here. Are the sounds on the Hornby A4 "Herring Gull" the wrong sounds or are they put on the sound chip incorrectly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gresley Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 As I've stated, you really do need to arrange a demonstration before making up your mind if you have been contemplating making the purchase. It's almost impossible to get a true and faithful record of the sound of the Hornby model on a home video camera and especially after also being uploaded onto Youtube. Don't take my word for it, don't judge the Hornby model from my video alone - do have a listen yourself. It's not good but it's perhaps not as bad to everyone as I judge it to be myself. I think what is most alarming is that a glance at Hornby's schedule for 2010 shows 'Sir Ronald Matthews', another sound-fitted A4 release imminent (as well as another Duchess among several others) when they really haven't got this one right yet. Having seen/watched various sound fitted locos, I am of the opinion that whilst diesel locos are now very realistic, there is still a long way to go with steam locos, especially 3- and 4-cylinder ones. The latest ones appear to be getting closer to the real thing, but the typical 3-cylinder syncopation is still very "synthetic", and as the speed is increased, the beat does not keep in time with the wheel revolutions. Indeed, when running at what one might call "full speed", the individual exhaust beats should become a continuous roaring sound. This just does not happen. I also notice this discrepancy with the 4-cylinder Duchess. In short, we have almost reached complete realism for diesels, but with steam locos, there's still a long way to go. I know that the younger generation are limited to seeing/hearing steam locos on special trains, and these are only small representations of what the steam wera was really like. However, there are very many recordings of steam as it was, in various situations and localities, which can be used as comparisons in order to help to improve the reproduction of "real steam sounds". I am not decrying the efforts of various firms and individuals for what they have achieved, but merely pointing out that there is much room for further development. gresley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mc Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Hi It is hard to achieve correct syncro on three calendar locos. You can adjust it with cv 57 and 58 but their will be a trade off. It may sound correct at low speed up to speed step 10 but then it starts to get out of sync, so I have being told, by the experts. My point I think Hornby have done a good job, I have built 25-30 sound A4's and those that got them love the sound and I have never had one complaint about sync. Now I have started adding "hall sensors" and soldering directly to the loksound with 6 neo magnets mounted on the wheels for correct sync. I have discovered that people look at 2 things for the sync, the cylinder action and rotation of the connecting rod on the wheel. Rotation being the most important, we then move to the cylinders. Part of the problem wheather it is Hornby or Bachmann is manufacturing tolerances. It is hard to get both of these to work together. I made a video of an A4 with a hall sensor added and an A4 working off CV57 and 58 both on the same address. It was a pointless exercise as you cannot tell form both of them chuffing away which is in sync and which is not. You well get correct sync with a hall sensor but is it worth it?????? I am yet to be convinced because of the extra effort. So if you want correct sync have a look at hall sensors. A pain to install actually its no fun at all, and one slip on the loksound........ IMHO one would need a complete sound studio connected to a model engine to achieve anything approaching realism, and still no loud rolling noises of carriages unless added to suit individual situations. I think this just about sums it up, but I say you will never keep everyone happy. By the way you can now buy the "Herring Gull" for the bargain price of $549.00 in Perth Australia. We are so lucky! Here is one of my builds Mallard with sound, duel smoke, express lights, firebox flicker etc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4UrdD9tHGo Cheers martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hamblin Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 That is very impressive Martin :icon_thumbsup2: Would it be possible to have a peek inside the loco body and the tender to see how you've laid out all the equipment? I am in the process of converting 60019 Bittern but I am loathe to do anything to the chassis block that removes metal (as the A4 is a bit of a lightweight compared with say the new Hornby Britannia), so any detailed suggestions as to where the smoke generators, speakers and decoder go would be a great. Cheers, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Hi It is hard to achieve correct syncro on three calendar locos. You can adjust it with cv 57 and 58 but their will be a trade off. It may sound correct at low speed up to speed step 10 but then it starts to get out of sync, so I have being told, by the experts. My point I think Hornby have done a good job, I have built 25-30 sound A4's and those that got them love the sound and I have never had one complaint about sync. Now I have started adding "hall sensors" and soldering directly to the loksound with 6 neo magnets mounted on the wheels for correct sync. I have discovered that people look at 2 things for the sync, the cylinder action and rotation of the connecting rod on the wheel. Rotation being the most important, we then move to the cylinders. Part of the problem wheather it is Hornby or Bachmann is manufacturing tolerances. It is hard to get both of these to work together. I made a video of an A4 with a hall sensor added and an A4 working off CV57 and 58 both on the same address. It was a pointless exercise as you cannot tell form both of them chuffing away which is in sync and which is not. You well get correct sync with a hall sensor but is it worth it?????? I am yet to be convinced because of the extra effort. So if you want correct sync have a look at hall sensors. A pain to install actually its no fun at all, and one slip on the loksound........ [ .... ] I think this just about sums it up, but I say you will never keep everyone happy. By the way you can now buy the "Herring Gull" for the bargain price of $549.00 in Perth Australia. We are so lucky! Here is one of my builds Mallard with sound, duel smoke, express lights, firebox flicker etc martin Thanks for that. I know nothing of the technicalities of synchronzing 'chuff' sound but thought that recordings of real steam locos starting and running could be made almost 'to order' given a good library of sounds, and some steam sounds are quite nicely 'in-sync'. I thought a recording of an A4 starting with say a seven-coach train might be possible, with the sound made exactly in tune with wheel revs (or 12v electric motor revs.,) and if people made the model start too fast the sound would be equivalently rather hurried... but without wishing to denigrate anyone the starting sounds of most 00 British engines sound a bit 'thin'. Those of us who have driven and fired heavy steam in the 1960s know that starting is a mix of many different sounds. I have a 1958 BBC recording of a loco starting 87 loaded wagons on an hot day, and the first 'chuff' of like a slow-motion explosion, and it's about a full second before the second 'chuff'... it's North British 1952 oil-fired NZR 4-8-2 several of which are still running... anyway, slack from couplings, slipping, people might go to sleep watching a model of this... after two minutes the train is at about 10mph., and as it curls across the double main track with the last few wagons groaning and the guard's van rolling sedately, the engine, now over half a mile away, gives a long exhaultant whistle. The whistle is different on an hot day... ...not like of frosty mornings with a late express. So I haven't spent money on DCC steam sound, yet. I did put a toe in the water with 4 Bachmann engines. 24, 40 45 and 55. Pretty good, I thought. I don't know how to satisfy we older types ? who lived and breathed steam everyday, but here is an A4 style recording which has the whistle, sort of, and six-cylinder starting, although to be fussy, the A4s had a deeper 'throat' at starting... that was what made them so beautiful... especially with the double-chimney locos... when 'Golden Plover' starts, the driver uses a quite short cutoff, lots of regulator and lets it go.. downhill and late... Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I see the last posting on this is a week ago and I have been reading the comments with interest as I have recently acquired a Hornby Railroad "Falcon" to which a SWD soound chip has been added. Much of the criticism of "Herring Gull" appears to be that the chuff rate is wrong and I agree that it is on the posted videos. However, no-one has mentioned that this is adjustable - at least it is on all my steam, sound locos (although I do not have one with a Hornby chip). A question I have is this: why is there a CV to adjust the rate of slowing of the chuffs as the speed of the loco increases? Surely, in real life, the chuff rate is fixed so on an A4 there would be six beats per revolution of the wheels whether the train was travelling at walking pace or full speed? I have noticed on sound equipped steam locos that most sound the same if obtained from the same source. Even with different sources, the application of the brakes seems to be identical and, in my opinion, much too prominent. The sound on my steam locos has been obtained from three different suppliers - SWD, Digitrains and Olivia's - and they are all different. Much more interesting! I cannot answer your qustion, but just add web-source sound to my trains, and otherwise operate them with just their natural sound. It might be a case of live and let live... Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gresley Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Thanks for that. I know nothing of the technicalities of synchronzing 'chuff' sound but thought that recordings of real steam locos starting and running could be made almost 'to order' given a good library of sounds, and some steam sounds are quite nicely 'in-sync'. I thought a recording of an A4 starting with say a seven-coach train might be possible, with the sound made exactly in tune with wheel revs (or 12v electric motor revs.,) and if people made the model start too fast the sound would be equivalently rather hurried... but without wishing to denigrate anyone the starting sounds of most 00 British engines sound a bit 'thin'. Those of us who have driven and fired heavy steam in the 1960s know that starting is a mix of many different sounds. I have a 1958 BBC recording of a loco starting 87 loaded wagons on an hot day, and the first 'chuff' of like a slow-motion explosion, and it's about a full second before the second 'chuff'... it's North British 1952 oil-fired NZR 4-8-2 several of which are still running... anyway, slack from couplings, slipping, people might go to sleep watching a model of this... after two minutes the train is at about 10mph., and as it curls across the double main track with the last few wagons groaning and the guard's van rolling sedately, the engine, now over half a mile away, gives a long exhaultant whistle. The whistle is different on an hot day... ...not like of frosty mornings with a late express. So I haven't spent money on DCC steam sound, yet. I did put a toe in the water with 4 Bachmann engines. 24, 40 45 and 55. Pretty good, I thought. I don't know how to satisfy we older types ? who lived and breathed steam everyday, but here is an A4 style recording which has the whistle, sort of, and six-cylinder starting, although to be fussy, the A4s had a deeper 'throat' at starting... that was what made them so beautiful... especially with the double-chimney locos... when 'Golden Plover' starts, the driver uses a quite short cutoff, lots of regulator and lets it go.. downhill and late... Rob Rob, Congratulations on those A4 sounds. They are the most realistic ones I have heard up to date. Surely it is not beyond our great manufacturers to produce similar quality ???? gresley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Rob, Congratulations on those A4 sounds. They are the most realistic ones I have heard up to date. Surely it is not beyond our great manufacturers to produce similar quality ???? gresley Thanks gresley, I'm not sure about various whistles on A4s over the years but this has a nice effect, to my ear at least, hopefully someday DCC sound will approach this. best, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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