GWR Signals

[rickgwr]

and...

 

for the approach into the branch (from the south as you look at the layout diagram), is it required to signal three possible routes - 1 to the platform, 2 to the loop and onwards to the main up line, and 3 to the engine shed? And have those signals on one gantry, at descending levels?

 

Then, it looks as though single "starter" (right terminology?) signals are required for trains leaving (a) the two main platforms, up and down, one each at the end, and (B) at both ends of the branch platform and the top (as you look at it) platform, on the basis that trains could depart in either direction.

 

Thereafter, is it down to ground signals for the sidings?

 

(genuinely hoping I'm getting something nearly right!)

 

Rick.

[The Stationmaster]

So... should the gantry at the down approach look like one of these?

Like the upper one Rick (the additional running line being relatively more important than the branch).

[The Stationmaster]

and...

 

for the approach into the branch (from the south as you look at the layout diagram), is it required to signal three possible routes - 1 to the platform, 2 to the loop and onwards to the main up line, and 3 to the engine shed? And have those signals on one gantry, at descending levels?

 

Then, it looks as though single "starter" (right terminology?) signals are required for trains leaving (a) the two main platforms, up and down, one each at the end, and ( B) at both ends of the branch platform and the top (as you look at it) platform, on the basis that trains could depart in either direction.

 

Thereafter, is it down to ground signals for the sidings?

 

(genuinely hoping I'm getting something nearly right!)

 

Rick.

 

The first signal (in the modelled area) as you arrive from the branch will be a two doll bracket structure - the right hand doll with the higher elevation 4ft arm will read to the platform; the 3ft arm - at lower elevation - on the left hand doll will read to the loop. By the time of the period you are modelling there might well be a Calling On subsidiary below the arm reading to the platform line. That signal might well look something like this although the 4ft arm could be at a lower elevation -

 

 

The others you are getting fairly right - my only question is are you sre the 'top' platform will involve trains reversing? If you are then what you describe is correct.

 

You also need to consider 'signalling for period modelled' (nah, that's not at all frightening) so your branch goods loop will have a proper signal with a ring on the arm for departure off down the branch line - as shown below this paragraph but at the other ender it will need a splitting signal (i.e. one with two dolls, one of which is bracketed off to the left at lower elevation to read to the engine shed, both arms will have rings)

 

 

Similarly there be a goods signal to come out of the sidings at the top.

[unclebobkt]

  ... .

 Once we know the answers I can do a suitable signalling sketch although because of the non-prototypical elements I've mentioned there will be one or two oddities in the signalling (the worst things is having the siding by the goods shed coming separately off a running line in a facing direction - ugh!!)

  ... .

 

 

 -- Stationmaster,

 

 - Realizing that you are a busy person both in the real world of 12ins.:1ft. and here in the modellers' world it is with some trepidation that I trespass upon your good nature and time for a suitable signalling sketch, taking the diagr. as shewn in posting #21. as the approved version.

 - Possibly, too, you could add the necessary trap-points to shew how the 'Real' thing would be done? (Modellers could incorporate them or not as desired.),.

 - I know that I look-for alternatives to speed-up the flow, (and taking the diagr. in isolation as shewn),   but may I write that I am surprised that there is no connection from the UP line into the UP branch at the platform's northern end, (readers' RIGHT.), - yes, I do realize that that would involve a Facing Point on the UP line - but Facing Points, and their FPLs., were not unknown;  here it would mean that a slower train could be diverted to the UP branch platform to allow a faster train through passage, (ie. - similar to there being a DOWN Main & a DOWN platform.),.

 -- :-)

[The Stationmaster]

 -- Stationmaster,

 

 - Realizing that you are a busy person both in the real world of 12ins.:1ft. and here in the modellers' world it is with some trepidation that I trespass upon your good nature and time for a suitable signalling sketch, taking the diagr. as shewn in posting #21. as the approved version.

 - Possibly, too, you could add the necessary trap-points to shew how the 'Real' thing would be done? (Modellers could incorporate them or not as desired.),.

 - I know that I look-for alternatives to speed-up the flow, (and taking the diagr. in isolation as shewn),   but may I write that I am surprised that there is no connection from the UP line into the UP branch at the platform's northern end, (readers' RIGHT.), - yes, I do realize that that would involve a Facing Point on the UP line - but Facing Points, and their FPLs., were not unknown;  here it would mean that a slower train could be diverted to the UP branch platform to allow a faster train through passage, (ie. - similar to there being a DOWN Main & a DOWN platform.),.

 -- :-)

I'll see what I can do but there is a queue of track plans awaiting signalling and it would be unfair to them (especially one who has had to wait quite a while) to do this one first although I think most of the signalling has already been covered in this thread.

 

As far as adding an Up Platform Loop is concerned the plan is someone's original reflecting what they wanted/had in mind and so there isn't an Up Loop.  Incidentally some of the trapping is quite awkward (although not difficult to add) as the plan was obviously drawn without considering it and it was probably devised to fit a particular space which would have to be increased to cater for proper trapping of the goods sidings at the top although there are other ways to tackle that problem.

 

So when time etc permits I'll be back but - as I say - most of the signalling is covered already in this thread.

[unclebobkt]

 ... .

So when time etc permits I'll be back but - as I say - most of the signalling is covered already in this thread.

 

  -- Stationmaster,

 - Thank you for your reply.

 - Yes, I do realize that you are busy, so I'm in no real great hurry, especially as there is that great British institution - a queue, already -  pressing for your services.  But I do remember the olde saying: 'If one wants something done then give the job to a busy man.': ;-)

 -- :-)

[Gruffalo]

 

 ... .

So when time etc permits I'll be back but - as I say - most of the signalling is covered already in this thread.

 

  -- Stationmaster,

 - Thank you for your reply.

 - Yes, I do realize that you are busy, so I'm in no real great hurry, especially as there is that great British institution - a queue, already -  pressing for your services.  But I do remember the olde saying: 'If one wants something done then give the job to a busy man.': ;-)

 -- :-)

 

I have found this thread, and the associated links, most useful. Hopefully that has actually reduced The Stationmaster's workload a little too! Trouble is, I have many Peco and old H&M point motors that will not be used in The Last Great Project so are now lined up to operate the signals. Bell cranks, brass tube and model aircraft pull rodding will be bought in bulk I suspect. There is no way all this can fit in my 00 signal box.

[unclebobkt]

 -- As I u'stand. these matters the GWR. - and the G&SWR. for that matter, too - drove their  trains like one drives one's automobile in GB. - on the LEFT and with the driver sitting on the OFF-side, (nearer the centre of the road.),.

 - As it is primarily the driver's responsibility to observe and to obey the signals would they be placed on the LEFT hand side of the track or on the RIGHT hand side - the latter where the driver should be able to see them more readily?

- I realize that the fireman, when he had nothing else to occupy his att'n.,  would be assisting the driver in looking-ahead at the signals - but that is not his primary function, is it?

  --  :-)

[The Stationmaster]

 -- As I u'stand. these matters the GWR. - and the G&SWR. for that matter, too - drove their  trains like one drives one's automobile in GB. - on the LEFT and with the driver sitting on the OFF-side, (nearer the centre of the road.),.

 - As it is primarily the driver's responsibility to observe and to obey the signals would they be placed on the LEFT hand side of the track or on the RIGHT hand side - the latter where the driver should be able to see them more readily?

- I realize that the fireman, when he had nothing else to occupy his att'n.,  would be assisting the driver in looking-ahead at the signals - but that is not his primary function, is it?

  --  :-)

 

A lot of (but far from all) GWR signals were placed on the right however provided they are decently sited and sighted many signals on the left were, and are, readily observable from a right hand drive engine.

[Froxfield2012]

A lot of (but far from all) GWR signals were placed on the right however provided they are decently sited and sighted many signals on the left were, and are, readily observable from a right hand drive engine.

 

I am reluctant to enter the fray here since the Stationmaster has spoken  but I have gathered, Mike, from your posts that you have a connection to the Reading area and so we must have seen the same lines.  Perhaps I misunderstand your post, but I struggle to recall any signalling (admittedly BR(W) from the 1950s) where signals were not on the LEFT of the track.  I am thinking of the line from Reading around the triangle, through Southcote etc and the Bristol line through Scours Lane and Tilehurst.  I also have pictures of Devon with the signalling to the left.  So I wonder if the majority of GWR signals were in fact to the left of the train (facing forwards?). It was, frankly, always a mystery to me how any footplate crew could see any signals with umpteen feet of boiler in front of them.  But of course the practice of "learning the road" would help and the GWR had its own system of Automatic Train Control (from early 20th century?) to pick the crew up on any missed signals.  Thumbnail added to make sure I have "left" and "right" the correct way round!!

 

 

Richard

[RailWest]

I suspect that the 'answer' lies in both the comment "a lot of (but far from all)...." and the timing of your observations. Perhaps 50 or so years prevsiouly you might have gained a different impression, but over time - with signal replacements and layout changes - there would have been an increasubg tendency IMHO to have placed signals on the left by default, but still use the right where circumstances desired it. One legacy of the broad-gauge and its subsequent narrowing was the wide-than-normal "six foot" in many places and it was not uncommon to see signals placed therein - certainly an example at Hele & Brandninch comes to mind (so one Devon example!).

[Froxfield2012]

I suspect that the 'answer' lies in both the comment "a lot of (but far from all)...." and the timing of your observations. Perhaps 50 or so years prevsiouly you might have gained a different impression, but over time - with signal replacements and layout changes - there would have been an increasubg tendency IMHO to have placed signals on the left by default, but still use the right where circumstances desired it. One legacy of the broad-gauge and its subsequent narrowing was the wide-than-normal "six foot" in many places and it was not uncommon to see signals placed therein - certainly an example at Hele & Brandninch comes to mind (so one Devon example!).

Yes, I am sure you are right about date.  However, the signal in the photo above has been on that side since at least 1935.  Further thinking leads me to recall that the departure signals at least at Kingswear were on the right.  Oh, and I have found a Maurice Earley shot of Oxford in 1924 which seems to show some of each (left and right).

 

Richard

[The Stationmaster]

Interestingly there were signals on the right in the Reading area right up to m.a.s. in the 1960s -

 

A number at Twyford ( 2 out of 6 stop signals at Twyford East, and 4 out of 6 stop signals plus one distant at Twyford West on the Main & Relief Lines but all its branch line signals were on the left apart from the Backing Signal.  Sonning Sidings had 2 stop signals on the right right up to m.a.s. notwithstanding major renewals when the power station sidings were added.  Kennet Bridge also had several, of its few, stop signals on the right hand side right up to m.a.s.

 

Reading Main Line East's Up Main Home and Inner Home signals (the latter being a 3 doll bracket) remained on the right hand sde right to the end notwithstanding having been blamed for a misreading incident leading to a collision over 50 years earlier and despitea number of other signals were renewed on the left instead of the right duriing WW2 when New Jcn was commissioned!  At Reading Main Line West the Down Relief Inner Home was renewed on the right hand side in the early 1960s.

 

Tilehurst's Relief Lines Home Signals were both on the right as was Pangbourne's Up Main Home, two stop signals at Goring, one at Cholsey, and several stop signals plus one of the distants at Moreton Cutting.

 

And of course I managed to expend a fair chunk of my pocket money getting to and taking photos of quite a few of the above signals in their final years.  So certainly not 'all' but still quite a lot and on some of the busiest section on the Western right into the 1960s when they succumbed to colour light signalling (one or two of wghich were also on the right hand side, albeit for siting reasons

 

Incidentally Southcote's Down Distant in that rather nice picture of the 'King' looks to be post war (but with a pre1947/8 arm) although it replaced a timber post signal in roughly the same place and on the same side.  As far as I can trace neither Southcote Jcn nor Oxford Road Jcn had any signals on the right hand side, certainly post the 1930s.

[Froxfield2012]

Yes, you are of course right.  Tilehurst seems a regular liquorice allsorts.  I took another look at this.  See below, looking east. Up relief seems to be on the left, but down relief and up main on the right?  Would available space or sighting be the main deciding factor?

 

Richard

 

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, you are of course right.  Tilehurst seems a regular liquorice allsorts.  I took another look at this.  See below, looking east. Up relief seems to be on the left, but down relief and up main on the right?  Would available space or sighting be the main deciding factor?

 

Richard

 

6852 Tilehurst rmweb.jpg

 

Up Relief nearest the camera, 6852 is on the Down Relief and has just passed the Home Signal, the diamond crossing is in the Up Main, then there's a wide six foot to the Down Main, then the Down Goods (which ran through from Scours Lane Jcn and the cold store), and finally a siding in the goods yard.  It's interesting to compare the picture with the one of 7014 taken at a later date and note the change to the Down main and Down Goods signals.

 

I think the Down Home was on that side as a mixture of both siting and sighting as it's where the 10 foot gap closed up but there was still an over-wide six foot on the Mains (with the Up Main Starter standing in that six foot.

 

Incidentally Reading Main Line West's Down Relief Inner Home appears in the left background of the picture of 6026 leaving Reading although you can't tell that it's sited on the right!  Lovely set of pictures BTW.

[Froxfield2012]

 Lovely set of pictures BTW.

 

Thank you. There is a deal more to come when I get round to the preparation thereof.

 

Richard