cbeagleowner Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hi there, Hope this finds everyone well. Just wondering if you might be able to help me. I've seen plenty of photos of the devonian in the 1950's with Chocolate and Cream GW mark 1's. But would it have ever featured Hawksworth or Collett coaches? I can't find any photos of it with them on? Would they have been Maroon? Thanks in advance - Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Very few coaches other than Mk 1s received chocolate and cream livery under BR. Until there were sufficient Mk 1 catering vehicles available some GW restaurant cars were painted choc-cream. Apart from that there was most of the Collett slip coaches [7069-7074], the three Hawksworth brake composites converted to slips in 1958 [7374-7376], two Hawksworth brake compos kept for VIP work [7372 and 7377], the super saloons [9113-9118], the VIP saloons 9001/2/4/5, the whitewash coach [139], the old dynampmeter car W7W and the replacement converted in 1961 from a Hawksworth corridor second [number escapes me]. As for what formed the Devonian prior to 1956, I would guess the 8'11" wide Colletts and Hawksworths which were built to be welcome on other regions. Before the mid 1930s most GW coaches were too wide to be acceptable away from home territory. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 "The 1950s" covers quite a range, but I can't see any Hawksworths: http://www.robertdarlaston.co.uk/Railways50yr_files/image064.jpg http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2400057 http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0001-j-payne-45605-bristol-R.jpg http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00000-joe-waterfall-bristol-2-L.jpg http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2745899 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Dawlish_Up_%27Devonian%27_geograph-2904117-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2440637 http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2098400 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Mostly BR standard stock in the 1950s. Formation from Leeds going south was BSK; SK; SK; SO (dining); RK or RU; CK; CK; SK; BSK. An extra SK was included on Fridays. There were relief trains on summer Saturdays which may well have included Hawksworths in maroon livery post 1956. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Leander is quite right and I should have remembered that the Devonian was an inter-regional service [which I did at 3 am!]. A quick peek at the summer 1954 carriage working programme shows the Devonian to be formed of London Midland stock. Even at that early date it was booked Mk 1s except for the dining car. Xpress Publications' "Operation Torbay", in very many ways a most useful book, claims that the Devonian was the only way of riding in BR standard stock to and from Torbay. However, as it purports to describe the workings of summer 1957, this cannot be right because by then the Torbay Express had its sets of BR Mk 1s in chocolate and cream. The summer 1961 CWP shows the Devonian to be formed of chocolate and cream stock save that the dining car was ER and WR stock on alternate days. Quite what the politics were behind the change I know not but something in the region of 170 LM Region coaches were booked to work into Paignton on a summer Saturday, many of them staying for a whole week. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbeagleowner Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thanks for all your help guys. Seems like that if I'm to justify a Hawksworth running on the midland main line, then I'm going to to find a picture somewhere. Though I do have piccies of Maunsell and Bulleid coaches on a service at Dore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I womder if there is a photo somewhere of the 5.15 pm Sheffield to Gloucester, Saturdays excepted? I've just found it in the summer '1961 CWP. It was formed of six WR coaches, probably not Mk 1s because it does not say that they should be and the brake seconds were specified with gangway adaptors. This would have come in handy on Mondays to Thursdays when an Eastern Region second was formed next the engine. On Saturdays, when all sorts could happen in the summer, the coaches formed [part of?] the 12.15 pm Weston-super-Mare to Sheffield. HTH, as they say. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbeagleowner Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi Chris. Thanks for this. I have heard of this weston super mare train once in about 1960 a K3 took it all the way to Weston! in light of you sheffield to gloucester thought i checked out my xpress operation midland. I cant find a reference to that one! however It says that the 0845 Bristol Newcastle would have had GW stock on mon, weds, Fridays. Also the Tuesday and Thursday return. As op midland is based in 1955 could it be that this is the same train? The GW coaches were brake third corridor (24) third corridors of (42 & 48) and a composite corridor of 18 or 24 seats. Do you have any idea which GW coaches theses might be please? I think that I have found a picture of a hawksworth at Bradford. P40 of the bell code Bradford. I can only see a bit of a coach but it looks like a hawksworth. Found a picture of a GW coach in perhaps crimson cream on a Leeds Sheffield local on p18 of bob pinxton book on north midland part 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I had a look in the 1954 CWP and could not find the Bristol - Newcastle trains. Then I remembered that the Western only took control of the Midland line between Bristol and Barnt Green in 1958. For that reason I am sceptical that the WR had any significant involvement in the Bristol - Newcastle service before then but the art of carriage diagramming is at times mystic! It is also intricate. The set for the Sheffield - Gloucester, which was notthe same train as the Newcastle - Bristol, was one of three in circuit. On day 1 it was the 5.15 Sheffield - Gloucester, on day 2 it worked Gloucester - Birmingham - Worcester and on day 3 Worcester - York - Sheffield. In addition there was a NE Region set which worked on Saturdays and on Mondays in high summer taking the place of one of the WR sets! Perhaps it does not appear in "Operation Midland" because most of its work was performed off the Midland - I do not have the book so had better not indulge in any more guesswork! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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