george stein Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Looking at the Bachmann GWR Colletts: would a correct three-coach train be (a) 1/3 brake+all 3+1/3 brake or (B) 1/3 composite+all3+1/3 brake? That is, was there usually a brake at each end or only at the end? (circa 1930-1940) Now looking at the Hornby Suburban B-set. Would a Prairie tank or 57xx be appropriate for either rake? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolmy Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I would say that either combination would be fine. Theoretically trains would have had a brake at each each, as you'd get with a B set formation. But as photographic evidence will show there were many different combinations. I know that the Bachmann brake composite and full 3rd are correct models of prototype diagrams. I think their composite is a made up derivative. If you're running a branch line train then it would be unlikely to consist of a nice matched set of three coaches. Have a look at some photos. You could easily add a Hornby Hawksworth full 3rd as a strengthener to a Colllett brake composite and full 3rd though that might be more a BR/WR period combination. Also bear in mind that the brake composite was built in fairly limited numbers compared to thirds and brake thirds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 and on top of that, the Hornby Hawksworths are terrific. for the loco, pretty much any GWR tank loco would be generically correct, but if you're after accuracy then have a look on this site: http://www.greatwest...rg.uk/index.htm it breaks down all the different steam loco types by shed allocation, so you can see what would likely have been used to haul the coaches in the area you're modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted October 18, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2012 There's a lovely photograph taken in the 1930s on the MSWJR of a clerestory brake, sandwiched between two Collett brakes (both - van end inward), drawn by a 4-4-0, with a horse box as tail traffic. This will be easy to model when the Bachmann Dukedog hits the shops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2012 Just make sure you have the correct number on the 57XX ; 6700 - 6749 didn't have vacuum brakes and therefore couldn't work passenger trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The Bachmann Colletts are only a Brake Compo and an all-3rd. Positioning of the brake section(s) in a 3-coach secondary-route train varied. Often it was in the middle. Corridor coaches on branches were rare until after WWII. It's very unlikely those Bachmann Colletts (1938) would be on secondary-route trains before 1940. Far more typical would be Toplights or Clerestories. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Where you would see the Bachmann Colletts on secondary routes is a detached portion of an express. Something like a brake compo or a third + brake compo either on their own or attached to the regular branch train. How about a B-set with a brake compo attached behind it? An example (although using Centenaries rather than Collett Sunshine stock) is the Cornish Riviera which was booked to drop a third + brake compo at St. Erth for St. Ives, caried forward by the branch loco. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The Bachmann Colletts are only a Brake Compo and an all-3rd... Do you mean the only correct ones? I thought they had also made a compo and a first, but neither are correct to prototype, being just the third with different stickers. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Do you mean the only correct ones? I thought they had also made a compo and a first, but neither are correct to prototype, being just the third with different stickers. Yes on both counts, Nick. I understand to a small extent (fictitious liveries and numbers) why manufacturers want to pretend their rolling stock is other than what it is, but it's sharp practice, and misleading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george stein Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Thanks. Helpful discussion. I assume the old Triang clerestories are what to hunt on e-bay? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 In GW terms one importance issue is the difference between a Van and a Brake. The challenge with the Bachmann Brake Compo is the limited luggae capacity. On the thre coach trains under discussion, a Van third, ie a coach with a large luggage compartment, was preferrable. This was the era before widespread car ownership, where most items went by train and passengers luggage was handled by GWR staff (often sent in advance), requiring large luggage facilities. The Brake Compo only really had suffiicient luggage space for the passenegers within that particluar coach, hence the GWR use of Brake Compo's for through carriages. Normal formation for a three coach local set would be Third, Van third, Comp. Although not official policy, the Van Third was often placed in the middle for operational ease. In the 1930s/40's the Bachmann Colletts were relatively new vehicles and would not be common on secondary three coach trains. The Hornby 1926 stock is more likley and Hornby produce the Van Third. Mike Wiltshire Edit MSJWR Further to Bishop's comments on the MSJWR, I have just been checking some shots. A regular set used was aThird, Brake Compo and Van Third. From my notes, what is interesting about this set is the Brake Compo is used not for the Brake facilities but the toilets. This was a non corridor set of coaches. The Brake Compo was built as a Brake Tri-Comosite (1st, 2nd, 3rd), which had an internal corridor to allow use of toilet facilities, which on a long run from Cheltenham to Southampton was most welcome. My Grandfather was a Swindon driver and although a mainline driver, would work occasional MSJWR trains from Rushy Platt to maintain route knowledge (useful when WWII came and he worked munitions trains on the MSJ). The Van Thirds needed very inch of space and would be filled at intermediate stations with a variety of goods including crated livestock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Here are some three-coach formations, as working in Gloucester, Newport, Cardiff and Swansea Districts in 1958. Some of them might have changed since the 1930-40 period and of course you would need to substitute third for second. Corridor Stock Brake Compo, Second, Van Second Second, Second, Brake Compo Van Second, Compo, Van Second Compo, Van Second, Second Second, Van Second, Compo Non-corridor Second, Van Second, Second Brake Second, Second, Brake Second Brake Second, Second, Second Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Please excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a Van Second and Brake Second? Enjoying this thread - Danemouth will only accept three coach trains! Thanks, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Dave Mike, covered the principle earler Van third, ie a coach with a large luggage compartment, ... The Brake Compo only really had suffiicient luggage space for the passenegers within that particluar coach. Cheers Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Dave Mike, covered the principle earler Cheers Rod Thanks Rod, must have missed that post somehow! Are there any models of a van second as opposed to a brake second? Regards, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Dave The D95, available from Comet or Hornby, seems to fit the bill, as would the D120 form the same manufauturers. Cheers Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Dave The D95, available from Comet or Hornby, seems to fit the bill, as would the D120 form the same manufauturers. Cheers Rod Thanks Rod, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Most of the GWR corridor single-class brakes were van thirds (later seconds) or van firsts as they had reasonably large luggage compartments, while the corridor compo brakes were almost all brake compos. The 1938 coach working book that I have only lists van thirds and brake compos, there are no brake thirds or van compos (among the mixed coaches). They do indicate if the coach was to have something other than the standard number of compartments, so a D120 would be a 'van third (2)' as it only had two passenger compartments. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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