ZTC controller

[Waverley West]

For £100 its worth it possibly as a very basic starter set and as long as the buyer is aware of its limitations.

 

I have a 511, I have the 622 and have enjoyed the feel of the controller but hated the problems with it and the untruths that ZTC propagated and the way they ripped of people by getting them to buy more ZTC equipment to fix problems with ZTC equipment.

 

two tone, I think much of what you've said has made a lot of sense and been very helpful, but to call the 511 a very basic starter set with limitations is well wide of the mark IMHO.

 

I use a 511 to control Waverley West, which has around 30 points, many four aspect signals with route feathers, call-on signals, alphanumeric route indicators, etc. etc., a fleet of sound-fitted diesels too numerous to mention and many many route setting options covering point and signal setting mimicking operations in the biggest station outside London.

 

Can you name another "very basic starter system with limitations" that can do that and do it in a relatively user-friendly, clear way?

 

Incidentally, I've had the chance to try the Hornby Select, the Bachmann Dynamis, the Lenz 90 and the Gaugemaster Prodigy and been very unimpressed with all of them. As I've said, I'm open to replacing my ZTC system in the future to update and improve, but I certainly won't be looking at a "very basic starter set" to give me comparable performance. Clearly you've had some major problems with ZTC and that's affected your views of them, understandably, and others are clearly in the same boat too, but far from everyone.

[two tone green]

There is a red button on the 511 to cut track power.

 

As for the switch, I seem to remember that in the 511 manual it mentions the switch and why it's fitted. That's in the current issue, 2004 I think it was issued with the latest firmware v4.01.

 

Any bets on a new version due soon.

[two tone green]

I agree about the Lenz 90, in my opinion it's horrible. But it's a hand set and the LZV100 it is connected to is a very nice box of tricks.

 

You can connect your 511 to it.

 

You do have a nice set up by the sound if it but I still stand by comment that the 511 is a basic starter set when compared to other DCC systems at a lower price. The feature range on other systems is usually much better.

 

Yes the 511 is capable of handling routes but is limited in that out of the box and needs the extra memory at £40. That is unless you know the equivalent Maplin part number and its a £5er I think

 

I have limited experience of other DCC systems beyond ZTC, Lenz and ESU so cannot comment on the other makes you mention so will not compare them to the 511 but they are not bad for the price.

[Waverley West]

Jim, to get back to your OP...

 

I think this thread should give you a pretty good idea of what people think about the ZTC system.

 

It's definitely a 'Marmite' subject in the railway modelling world. You either love it or hate it. I'd think seriously before buying one and whether it has most of what you want. It may well be ideal for you, the inertia function certainly is, and I personally find it enjoyable to use. My system has served me pretty well for the past ten years or so now and will probably carry on serving me for a while yet at least. It does what I want it to do, and more. But like any system it does have its drawbacks and people have experienced some frustrating glitches which have remained unfixed. There are other, more modern systems out there these days which weren't around when I bought mine. I like the look of the ECoS system for example, which may be worth a look for you too. I'm sure there are others too.

 

At the end of the day it's your hard-earned cash and your decision. But whatever you decide, have fun!

 

Cheers,

Dave

[queensquare]

I think Waverley West has given you the fairest assessment you will get. Like Dave I have had my 511 for about ten years now, its never given me a problem and does everything I want it to. There's no doubt that some of the more modern systems have lots more bells and whistles but most of those have no interest to me. I like the design of the console and the operating experience, I don't like using buttons for speed control.

Calling the 511 a basic starter set is a nonsense, Two Tone Green has obviously had a bad experience with ZTC in the past and will knock them at every opportunity. That's his prerogative but its not really a fair assessment of the system.

As Dave said, its your money so take your choice,

 

Jerry

[Combe Martin]

As for the switch, I seem to remember that in the 511 manual it mentions the switch and why it's fitted. That's in the current issue, 2004 I think it was issued with the latest firmware v4.01.

The manual does mention the switch. Section 13.10 on page 59 covers it, but only in relation to being able to isolate the track from the power when solving problems, I cant find any mention of any other reason. If this was a problem in the 'old days' I suspect it's been long solved. Certainly Neil Kinison says that omitting the switch will not cause problems. The current issue of the manual is 2009.

[two tone green]

I stand corrected, a new manual. I must have miss read the date on the online issue on the ZTC website for the date. So they have moved up.

 

Is it the same firmware, 4.01 back from 2004 or there abouts. There was a rumour that there was 4.02 and some one claimed to have it but I think its not actually been released. That was back around 2005 though.

 

As for the switch in line with the track feeds, so what is the red button for. I always used it to stop the trains with once push and with two pushes it turned of track power. I gave it two pushes when I was near the track doing anything due to unexpected issues after shorts. So how was the issued solved with inrush of current that was much talked about by the folks at ZTC and even by the NMRA?

[GoingUnderground]

IIRC, David Nicholson, the owner/director/proprietor of the old ZTC Controls told me when I bought the 505 off him at the Nottingham show in about 2006 or 2007, I can't remember exactly, said they were needed to prevent voltage spikes reaching the track when you first turned on the power supply to the 505. Unlike many other systems there are no relays in the 505 or 511 to keep the power to the track off until the voltage and operating system has settled down. I didn't fit the switches, and paid for it by losing a Lenz LH101 6 function decoder. It was working when I turned the system off one day, but not when I turned it on the next day.

 

I do agree wholeheartedly with other folks comments that "You pays your money and you takes your choice", provided you're in full possession of all the facts and information available about the product when you make your choice.

[Jim]

Right,

 

Plenty to think about now....

 

So, an ECoS with inertia/coasting functions with a separate brake handle....

 

Someone might design that!

 

Again, thanks

 

Jim

[Jim]

 

The Lenz standard at under £20 has the same range delays as the Silver. Install one of these, and drive the motor from that instead of the Loksound, both decoders addressed simultaneously either on the same address or made up into a consist. It may need experimentation with a custom speed line to delay start of movement until the brake release sound sequence has started, but for the potential saving that strikes me as a small price to pay.

 

Right, I've just tried this, it works.

 

In a class 20 with sound, I unsoldered one of the motor wires from the circuit board. I then fitted it with a Howes 47 v3.5.

I flitted a Lenz silver 21 pin into the 47 and set the cvs for slow acceleration.

I then made a consist, using a NCE controller, making the sound decoder the "lead loco" so I could use the horn and other functions.

You can still over ride the acceleration of the silver in the 47, to make it "direct drive" in the normal way by briefly selecting the Lenz fitted 47 and selecting function 4 in the normal way for the silver decoder.

It reacts perfectly, but:

You don't get that increase in sound when a loco goes up a bank.

The loco obviously starts moving before the brakes have released on the static sound loco so you have to select the lowest power step until the brakes come off.

The biggest thing that I didn't realise would be such a problem was this: I sit in the middle of a 11' x 9' layout. I didn't think that "static" sound would be an issue but, it is.......it surprised me that even a smallish set up like mine you still notice the sound coming and going and changing tone as the engines move around. The sound actually became annoying because it just stayed the same...

 

The advantages are that you would only need one decoder for each class of engine and buy the cheaper non sound engines giving you a greater choice too.

 

I thought I'd found a really good thing but I don't know. I'm not spending £100+ a time replacing v3.5s for v4s.

 

It was an interesting experiment, I have ordered another silver to fiddle with a class 25 and "modify" a spare loco.

I'll run the two engines to see if I get used to it.

 

 

 

Jim

 

[shibushe]

I have been an avid fan of ZTC for 8 years now, and would not swop for anything else. It will run 16 locos at once if you can handle that many. The stack is 16, but if you call up another from the roster it will put that in the stack and remove the last one you have used.I also have another 511 as a slave all works very well.

As for the runaways, this problem was not the doing of the unit, it was as i understand it spurious signals from elsewhere. easiy solved by fitting filters to the power bus at a cost of around £10.

The inertia control is not part of the decoder itself, its incorperated within the unit, but will only apply to the loco you apply it to.

Its a fasinating operation, If you set it to the maximum scale, from top speed the loco will run, what seems like for ever, slowly dropping the steps till it stops. The nack is for you to control it to stop. What fun.

5 Amp power, Signals, DCC points all operated from the unit.

Read And Write CVs. You can speed match locos, I will agree the unit does look like a steam cab, but who cares, i run my diesals with with it as you can with any manufacturer, and most of them dont look like a cab anyway. Regards.

[unklian]

Great thread and very interesting discussion gentlemen, thank you all. I think I might try and find a ZTC unit to try for my purposes.

[shibushe]

I have been using ZTC 511 for ten years now and would NOT swop it for anything else. Infact I have two ( Ebay) and run the second as a slave.

The inertia does not affect any CVs. Its fun to use, a heavy freight will take awhile to stop, same with an express,      judge it right and it will stop just at the right place, All on its own, dropping the steps one at a time. Have it set at 128 steps, Max Inertia. you might aswell go and have have a tea break.

 

THE BRAKE. . This is very sensitive. I think ZTCs idea was, that with the regulator wide open, You can with use of the reverser & the brake together control the loco. I tried it, but its to touchy,  Gentle use of the reverser will have the same result. Best to use CV 3 & 4.  Followed  by Cv5 Top speed. Then a % of this to bend the curve in Cv6.

 

I spoke to ZTC last week, it seems the long awaited update is due. If I remember. ZERO 1 wont be available on new models.

The other mod is something to do with PC connection. If you want this update your unit has to go back to ZTC.

 

You must remember that ZTC went through a few owners, the inventor of Zero 1 was the same guy who did ZTC. Who then sold on the rights. The present owner, having bought ZTC,  had to build up funds, not easy these days, to fund the hope for update.

[Andy SR]

I gave up railway modelling a few years back, and sold everything and bought a boat (not the best decision I have ever made). And even then my ZTC lacked a few things I wanted that some of the other systems had, but one thing it did have which I dont think anyone has mentioned about the ZTC511, is that when sound equipped locos hit a dead spot, they didn't go right through the start-up proceedure again. Is this an experience others have had? As I often wondered about it.

 

Now back firmly into Model Railways again, I am just considering what to buy as my main system for my new layout. I absolutely loved the ZTC511 and had a few problems with it, but equally, have had problems with the other systems i've had too. To resolve the problems I had at the time, I front ended the ZTC with an ECoS, and was happy again. However, I did still have a couple of issues with it. I would love, for ZTC to update their 511. Ability to handle Railcom+, get rid of the head and tail-lights idiosyncrasy, more functions, get rid of the start-up spike, which did blank the memories of a couple of Soundtrax decoders I remember, and, most of all, a proper all-singing and dancing PC interface, so I can use RR&Co and/or SSI+ARS+TPAWS/EAWS+TVM430+ETCIS2 and add ons etc.

 

Now firmly based on the computer, do I need an ECoS? Can I use ZTC511s, even 505s, just as controllers? Obviously not at present, as ZTC cannot deal with two-way communications at the required level. But in my eyes, there is nothing as good as the metal-cased ZTC as a control console. Using the regulator/brake to control a Dyna-Drive heavy ballast train up and down 30:1 grades, or keep a 373 at line speed, is an experience not to be missed.

 

So, how do we get the funds and momentum together to update the ZTC? What is the cost of doing this? Perhaps it may be worth some investment, to retain a British manufacturer who would be much more responsive to the British modeller than the likes of the major US and German manufacturers, or, are we happy with British being second best? When ZTC first came out, an American writer whom I believe wrote the first book on DCC, referred to the ZTC as "The Rolls-Royce of controllers, with some idiosyncrasies. How so British"

 

Whether ZTC runs or falls into insignificance, is really, up to us. Lobby the new owner to provide what we want to buy. If he needs capital to do it, in principal orders for a new upgraded 511, would surely trigger his bank to support his business plan. Sadly, there has been some historical mistrust of ZTC which the new owner needs to get over, so they need to supply the goods. In terms of support and specification, there is more than one poster on here who could help.

 

Come on ZTC: Please give us back the new Rolls-Royce of the DCC Controller market.

[GoingUnderground]

.......but one thing it did have which I dont think anyone has mentioned about the ZTC511, is that when sound equipped locos hit a dead spot, they didn't go right through the start-up proceedure again. Is this an experience others have had? As I often wondered about it........

 

The "resume" function which allows the loco to continue as before after a power loss is controlled by one of the CVs on Loksound decoders. Sorry, can't remember which one.  I have my LokSounds set up like that and I use an ECoS. It has nothing to do with the controller you use be it the 511, an ECoS or whatever.

[Andy SR]

The "resume" function which allows the loco to continue as before after a power loss is controlled by one of the CVs on Loksound decoders. Sorry, can't remember which one.  I have my LokSounds set up like that and I use an ECoS. It has nothing to do with the controller you use be it the 511, an ECoS or whatever.

 

LOL. Ah well. That explains another anomoly I thought I had then. Thanks for that.