george stein Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Don't want to rely only on photos of restored vans. So, while it's clear that the gunpowder van body was painted black, is the van black all-over or would the underside (solebars, etc.) have remained traditional GWR dark grey? Minor point, but the color difference should be obvious on the prototype vs. restored. BTW, the new Parkside-D gunpowder van is a pleasure to build and looks better than the old C-C iron mink.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted November 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2012 George, It might be helpfull to specify Railway and time frame as the colours varies through eras as well as geography. For example the LNWR Gunpowder vans appear to have been Vermillion upto the early 1900s and then grey after that. I'm guessing that you're modelling a later period though. Argos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It might be helpfull to specify Railway and time frame as the colours varies through eras as well as geography. For example the LNWR Gunpowder vans appear to have been Vermillion upto the early 1900s and then grey after that. Time frame maybe but the section of the forum this is in should be a giveaway on the company. The GW seem to have been quite fond of one colour all over when it came to goods rolling stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 In referring to the early Z1, built 1887-1909, Atkins et al. just mention the black livery, but they show a 1904 photo in which the underframe appears to be as dark as the body. Another photo shows a Z2 in 1914. Here, the body looks lighter than the underframe. The difference, though, could well be due to the way in which light reflects from the sheet metal sides. Again, I would go for overall black. Russell's Appendix shows a Z4 in 1939 in which the body and underframe are definitely the same dark colour. The captions says black with a light grey roof. Russell's captions are sometimes questioned but as this matches other sources, it is certainly believable. The next page shows one of the converted iron minks labelled "Improvised Gunpowder Van" of the type hired to the Southern. The photo was taken in 1938. Again, this is the same overall colour but either it is black and the photo is somewhat overexposed or it could be dark grey. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george stein Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Thank you. Era, 1930s; GWR. I'll go with overall black. BTW, I've found Humbrol enamel #28 "camouflage grey" to be a very convincing GWR wagon roof color (assuming one will also be weathering the wagon). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 The next page shows one of the converted iron minks labelled "Improvised Gunpowder Van" of the type hired to the Southern. The photo was taken in 1938. Again, this is the same overall colour but either it is black and the photo is somewhat overexposed or it could be dark grey. Nick Nick, I believe the "Improvised Gunpowder vans" which you correctly describe as converted MINKS were all diagrammed as Z4 so are slightly different from the original 27 built (1913, 1926) Z2 8 ton 2 cwt. (short DCIII brake) in 2 lots: 788 (numbers 79914-28) and lot 964 (numbers 105548-59), and the original 11 built (1924 - note date overlap) Z3 7 ton 8 cwt. (long, Morton) in a single lot 935 (numbers 105490-500). The Z1 were all built as early iron MINKS (V6) pre 1914 they did however have differences from the outset no vents, flush plates and lockable metal doors and of course the wood and lead interior detail. The most distinguishing feature of the Z2/3 was the wrap under stanchions. There is a little confusion over the Z4 lot.This was ordered in 1937/9 but was cancelled? in favour of converting 50 old iron MINKS and 10 iron "vans".In the majority of references livery is painted overall black with white, later (date unknown) red lettering, the roofs being while. The doors almost always carried a St Andrews style cross over entirety and in red. The letters GPV were carried on both ends between the stanchions. Russell (Freight wagons ...) manages to introduce some confusion referring to them being painted in dark grey though I am inclined to believe this applied to the hastily converted "Improvised Gunpowder vans" MINKS for wartime use. It is also worth noting that the paint on these vehicles was particularly thick as considerable care was taken to prevent sparks. (noting the heavy lead and wood boarding internally and the use of brass screws and provision of overshoes with very strict regulations on handling and movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 ...There is a little confusion over the Z4 lot.This was ordered in 1937/9 but was cancelled? in favour of converting 50 old iron MINKS and 10 iron "vans"... Hi Kenton, Yes, all correct as far as I can see. Atkins et al. (1986 edn) list 25 Z4 built under lot 1346 and numbered 105761-85 and Russell's fig 102 is one of these (105780). This latter is not a converted Iron Mink (it has square corners like Z2), so is it one of the other converted vans, or were these built in addition to the cancelled lot? I'm inclined to think the latter. Atkins et al. also say "Z4 was 6in longer than the others, using the N30 underframe...". Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 This latter is not a converted Iron Mink (it has square corners like Z2), so is it one of the other converted vans, or were these built in addition to the cancelled lot? I'm inclined to think the latter. Atkins et al. also say "Z4 was 6in longer than the others, using the N30 underframe...". Nick As I read Atkins, no Z4 was built to the Diagram and they were all conversions. They are pretty clear that the 50 were from "various" old iron MINKS so my reading of that is they could even be some of the WWI Z2 conversions that were "all converted back to MINKS" in 1929, converted back again? As many of these were "at the behest" of the SR, I can imagine that old vans would make do. The Z4 diag also had RCH rather than GWR self-contained buffers (though I guess there was scope for changes). I have very little on their survival/use post WWII or what livery they ended up in. I'm also a little surprised that they all didn't get swept into the WD/Direct Military use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duff man Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Gents, can any one point me in the right direction for a source of transfers for these wagons. Many thanks. Craig. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Gents, can any one point me in the right direction for a source of transfers for these wagons. Many thanks. Craig. Parallel topic Cambridge Custom Transfers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duff man Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Thank you Kenton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutyDruid Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Realise it is a year after this topic was live, but I've just come across this thread and this photo in a google search for "gunpowder van iron mink" for a Southern related wartime project. Elliott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve howe Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Looking to get a couple of GWR gunpowder vans to convert to P4, does anyone know if the Dapol van, which appears very nicely finished, is the original GWR livery or the later WR version? the prefix W before the number makes me wonder. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Looking to get a couple of GWR gunpowder vans to convert to P4, does anyone know if the Dapol van, which appears very nicely finished, is the original GWR livery or the later WR version? the prefix W before the number makes me wonder. Steve The 'W' prefix would suggest it's a BR livery; however, this might be a left-over from its original appearance in the Hornby-Dublo 'SD' range, about 50 years ago. H-D used to have the lettering painted on inset moulded characters- the very devil to repaint. If you haven't already bought the Dapol wagons, might I recommend looking at the Parkside kit. The Dapol van suffers from having been designed to use the standard 10' wheelbase, 17'6" over headstocks, chassis of the Hornby-Dublo original, and so is substantially too long (later GPVs were 16'6", earlier ones 15'6", over headstocks, whilst all but the very last BR Diagram were 9' wheelbase). It's also noticeably wider than it should be; GPVs were quite noticeably smaller when seen with other vans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve howe Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Thanks for that Brian, I have'nt seen the Dapol van in the flesh, but from photos I thought the proportions looked slightly wrong. For much the same price the Parkside kit looks the best bet - just have to build and paint the wretched thing! Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 If you're ok with building and paining it, Dapol sell unpainted bodies. £1.55 each http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_60_85_125&product_id=849 I did a cut and shut on one to make a Z4. Take 2mm off each side. You should technically take something from the ends as well but I couldn't be bothered. I should really finish this sometime... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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