Standard Class 5 cab side numbers

[railroadbill]

I've started to work on a Bachmann Standard class 5 which I've acquired second hand. The loco I want is 73112 in it's last condition when named Morgan Le Fay (as from April 1960) and with final style tender emblem. The Bachmann version I have is 73158. It doesn't have the right tender for 73112 (which needs a BR1F tender and model has a BR1B tender) but that's a later problem to sort out. It is however the right type of loco, Doncaster built with whistle horizontal near cab.

I've removed the 58 numbers ok with the end of a cocktail stick. They came off easily. All I need to do is to add 12 on each side and job done.

However, the cabside numbers on 73158 are slightly smaller than on another Bachmann Standard 5 I have which is 73030.

I've found photos (both in my books and on the web) of 73112. One pic in earlier guise with early emblem and un-named shows larger numbers. However, pics of later condition definitely with nameplate seem to show the smaller numbers. Unfortunately all these later pics are 3/4 view from front and aren't too clear, however I've seen clear side-on pics of other Doncaster built 5s of the second SR named batch, (particularly 73116 Iseult) which do have small cab numbers.

 

Could anyone please confirm that this batch (and particularly 73112!) should have smaller cab numbers? Got transfers for both sorts but want to get it right!

 

Reason for this particular loco is that I "spotted" it at Waterloo one day long long ago and then travelled on the down ACE behind it. It made quite an impression on me as I remember it as absolutely gleaming (must have been ex-works) and it seemed quite small compared to the WCs and MNs around. It didn't half shift as well (my father was keen on recording train speeds). Must have got my railway obsession from him, I was rather young at the time.

 

I have another more fundamental query about another Standard 5 but I'll have to post that seperately.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Bulleidboy]

Looking at my reference books I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer (pun intended!).

 

In "The Book of the BR Std Class 5" (Irwell Press) there is a short paragraph noting that Scottish locos had the larger cab numerals and some of the Southern ones did also in the 1950s. I too have a shot of 73112 without names, large numerals and Early Emblem in June 1956 (BR Standard Steam in Close Up Vol One -Bradford Barton). In the same volume large numerals on 73119 (4/3/60), 73119 (12/10/59) but small on 73117 (18/4/64).

 

As you say, 3/4 view photos can be hard to judge, but looking at some other books it appears that if a loco had large numerals this was more likely to be in the late 50s than the 60s.

 

If 73112 had the size changed this was likely to be at a general overhaul in 1960 (when named) or at one of the two later intermediate overhauls in May 1961 or Dec 62/ Jan 63.

 

Your question hasn't been answered but hope the above is of some use.

 

regards

 

Mike

[Combe Martin]

The picture book 'Southern Counties Main Line Steam' by Michael Welch has a colour picture of 73112 at Yeovil Junction in may 1964, and although probably greater than an 3/4 view, it clearly shows the loco with the smaller numbers that were fixed to most of the class, and indeed most of the locos in the standard classes, certainly by the '60s.

 

The height of these numbers is just slightly more than the depth of a Std 5s running plate.

 

I too have been renumbering Bachmann Std 5s, and being an S&D modeller have renumbered 73030 into 73047, 73110 into 73116 ISEULT, and green 73014 into 73054 (with appropriate mods to the cab and tender doors and handrails, and running plate lining too).

 

With all 3 I used the complete 5 digit number transfers from the Fox range as I didnt want to try and get a 'size match'. These are very easy to use. Having allways studied photos of my target loco and others in the class, I found that in most cases the top of the number was aligned with the top edge of the running plate (including 73112), though there are some where the number is slightly lower.

 

Edit : 73112 certainly is a 'pig' to research. I've scanned through dozens of Southern picture books and the above picture is the only one I've found.

[railroadbill]

Thanks for info, Bulliedboy and Coombe Martin. Looks from Mike's Bradford Barton book that number size did vary on the second "named" batch so i can't assume they were all the same. However, 73112 has smaller numbers in "Southern Counties main line steam" so I'll go that way, certainly not a commonly photographed engine, as you say! (Wish I'd been old enough to have had a decent camera back then).

I've got some PC models transfers, had them rather a long time, which I was going to use. I've removed the last 2 numbers on each cab side, came off easily with a tooth pick that I blunted the end of. Another Bachmann engine did need a drop of turps on the stick to get the number off, though. However, the Fox transfers are good, used them on a 33 class diesel so may get those instead. Need name plates as well. 73112 definitely had a BR1F tender as well in the pics I've seen so have to see to that.

 

73112 is part of a small link of "engines I spotted when going on holiday" in early 60s that I'm building up. However, I have previously renumbered/converted/built kits for SDJR allocated locos and stock. (std 4, 4fs 3f, 22xx 2p and so on) There are certainly many photos of SDJR due to Ivo Peters et al. but also of latter days of steam on SR so it's odd that 73112 is so elusive, still haven't found any more pics of it.

 

I've also got Bachmann 73030 (which has larger cab numbers) and I was going to renumber it as 73029 (another "spot") but I have found pics of that engine and it's green! Perhaps I should do a rather bigger project to repaint it but in "Colour of Steam - Somerset and Dorset line" by RC Riley there is a pic of 73028 in black at Evercreech Junction so perhaps it would be easier to do that one and have it in the SDJR link. Or 73047 like Coombe Martin's could be the way to go. May have to look for another std 5 to do in green, looked nice in pic but I alsways thought they looked better in black (having said which most of them were so dirty it was hard to tell anyway).

 

Thanks again for info

Bill

[asmay2002]

Looks from Mike's Bradford Barton book that number size did vary on the second "named" batch so i can't assume they were all the same.

 

It's got nothing to do with which batch the locos were, merely which works did the last repaint. Some works used the large numbers (esp St Rollox in Scotlan as already noted) others the smaller ones.

[railroadbill]

It's got nothing to do with which batch the locos were, merely which works did the last repaint. Some works used the large numbers (esp St Rollox in Scotlan as already noted) others the smaller ones.

 

Meant the batch of locos that were named on SR. Presumably though the locos would have been overhauled at the same works? Camelot locomotive society book "The Standard Arthurs" says they were overhauled at Eastleigh works. (These particular ones were all SR allocated locos). However, some certainly had larger numbers earlier then replaced by smaller ones. As an aside, this does raise an interesting point generally as to where major overhauls were carried out, whether this could have sometimes been out of region in BR days due to works capacity etc.

 

I measured the numbers with a micrometer and 73030 has 3.52mm high numbers and 73112 has 3.02mm numbers so actually hard to tell apart at first glance but the smaller number string appears to be shorter on the panel after looking at it closely so I should put the right size on..

 

The PC models transfer sheet says that "S NE and Scottish regions mostly used the larger figures and LMR mostly the medium size with variations" . Think "mostly" is the operative word here as they certainly varied on SR.

[railroadbill]

 

With all 3 I used the complete 5 digit number transfers from the Fox range as I didnt want to try and get a 'size match'. These are very easy to use. Having allways studied photos of my target loco and others in the class, I found that in most cases the top of the number was aligned with the top edge of the running plate (including 73112), though there are some where the number is slightly lower.

 

 

 

I've just ordered etched name plates from Fox for 73112 (plus 70A shed plate) so I've also ordered transfer cab side numbers as well while I was about it following your suggestion, so thanks for that. (Expect they've researched the right size for the numbers!)

 

As an aside have you had any problems with the front bogies on your Bachmann Std 5s? The bogies on my 2 don't seem to ride up enough causing loco to derail in places where all other locos run ok. I was going to replace the pivots with small bolts, but perhaps this is a known problem with a simple solution? May just be my 2 of course.

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Combe Martin]

All 3 of my Std 5's run Ok, but there's not a lot of vertical movement on the front bogie, it may be worth taking it apart to make sure there's nothing sticking. Have you checked the 'back to backs' ?. As for number sizes, I've been studying the pictures in the RCTS book again (loads), and it seems there are 3 sizes. Small (most locos), a little bit bigger than small (a few locos), and much bigger (some Scottish locos, or some before 1961). It certainly looks as though all 'southern' area locos after 1960 had the small size, which is what Fox supply.

 

The reason I wanted a 73047 was because it was on the S&D a long time, up to mid 1964, so is right for my whole modelling period.

 

Where are you going to get a spare BR1F tender from ?, I dont think I've ever seen one on Ebay !. Would it not be easier to renumber a Bachmann 73110 ?

 

As far as green Std 5s go, theres quite a long list of those repainted green together with dates in the RCTS book, but again you've got to make sure the tender is right. Yes 73029 was green, but not untill July 1963. Bachmann's green 73014 would be right for renumbering as 73029, and they do come up on Ebay.

[geoffers]

Bachmann do 73049 in green, a recent release, and OK for the S&DJR for 1964 onwards. Think most green Class 5s were 1963/4/5.

 

73110 (is it still available?) was released with a BR1F tender which had a too sharp curve at the top of the tender. It can be smoothed off carefully with a file/emery paper but if left alone it's not too disastrous. I haven't messed about with my example and I'm OK with it. Bachmann have released a 9F with a BR1F tender with the correct curve on the tender, but of course it is unlined.

 

I have always liked the Bachmann Class 5s. They look right too me athough the cab angle may be a little wrong. Overall a decent

model IMHO.

[Combe Martin]

Bachmann do 73049 in green, a recent release, and OK for the S&DJR for 1964 onwards. Think most green Class 5s were 1963/4/5.

This is slightly missleading. 73049 was repainted green at Eastleigh in August 1963 when it was still a Bath loco, but was transferred away from the S&D in September 1964. Also the majority of Std 5s that acquired green livery first did so before 1961, that's 26 of them. The remaining 6 out of 32 were repainted green for the first time from 1963 onwards.

 

There are a couple of potential errors in Bachmann's 73049. It has the WR cabside red dot and shed plate 71G. Now because 73049 was repainted at Eastleigh rather than Swindon it didn't have the red dot, well certainly not between 8.63 and 3.64. Whether it acquired one after it was transferred away to Oxford I don't know. Also Bachmann seem to think it was green in it's early days because the 71G Bath shedplate didnt apply after February 1958. For 1963 it should have 82F.

 

Neither of these are difficult to correct of course.

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Bill

 

I replied yesterday but it seems to be wandering around cyberspace, so......

 

No running problems with my Bachmann Class 5s but I did have with my kit built DJH models.

 

This was easily cured by following a previous suggestion to try the Comet LS73 bogie pivot plate (with LS46 shouldered screw). The design keeps the bogie arm fixed and forces the bogie to follow a small curved path in the sprung plate by sliding rather than just swivelling. The instructions state that the bogie plate can be used with RTR models (although it is designed for use with kits). The fixing arm has a long slot, to which a washer is soldered to establish the correct wheelbase between bogie pivot and front driving axle - so presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to modify for RTR stock but I haven't tried that.

 

Mike

[railroadbill]

Hi, thanks for all the above, which has been most helpful. Where I am now is:

 

1. Front bogie. It's been very handy having 2 similar locos as I could adjust 1 while having the other(completely assembled) one to check against. The bogie is secured by a small bolt, washer, spring and nut which is more of a small threaded tube underneath. It slides/pivots in a curved slot which sounds similar but simpler than the system Mike used on his kit built locos. Anyway, the bolts were done up realy tightly so teh bogie didn't have much up and down movement. I took the body off the chassis, no easy job there seem to be a number of connected sub assemblies so the body doesn't come straight off. I then undid the nut/bolt assembly until there was more play. The bogie could then drop lower with some of teh spring showing. I reassembled the loco, having the Bachmann diagram and the other loco helped.

I ran the loco on its own round the layout and it just purred round. The bogie stayed on the track with no problems at all. I tried the unadjusted loco and it again derailed, The inner bogie wheel sometimes stopped turning so it was being lifted slightly off the track in places. Allowing the bogie more movement did the trick.

Unfortunately, when I lifted the modified engine off the track, the bogie fell off. The securing nut (or threaded tube) had fallen off on the track - I did finally find it - so I'd loosened it too much.

Having stripped the loco down again........

Anyway, I've now done both locos, (took the opportunity to lubricate bearings/gears as Bachmann suggested) they now manage to stay on the track right round the layout. (They were the only locos I have that had this problem).

 

2. Tenders. Now coming to conclusion that I might have done better hanging on for 73110 to come up second hand, which would then have had the correct tender. However, as 73110 was another "spotted" loco it might have had to stay as that. Comet make a kit for a BR1F tender with a resin body and etched chassis so if all else fails I could build one of those (but they are £30) and would also need lining transfers. . Buying a Bachmann loco with a BR1f and doing a swap and more loco renumbering is also on. It also occurs to me that the BR1F tender isn't that much different from the BR1B (?) so it might be possible to modify 1B to !F although that's a can of worms I haven't opened yet.

 

3. Green std 5 locos especially 73029. I haven't got the RCTS book on these locos (although I've various other ones) - was 73029 painted green at Eastleigh then? I kind of thought that the WR allocated ones were green then they'd moved on to other regions (or SDJR when it became WR) but that implies that I could have 73029 in black up to mid 1963. More thought on this one, but getting a green one to start with might be better for that inevitable green example. But which one? H'mm.

 

4. Morgan Le Fay 73112. The nameplates, number plate shed plate and cab side transfers turned up today from Fox transfers. Really good etchings and fantastic service since I only ordered them on-line Sunday night. The loco's right version so renumbering/naming has to be done, even if the tender is going to be a further problem.

 

Must admit, even though I spent most of the afternoon staring at a tray covered with little plastic bits and small screws trying to reassemble the locos it's been a fascinating project. Very well detailed models, run very smoothly (well mine do now they stay on the track). May have to look for another....

 

More postings on further developments soon I expect.

 

Thanks for info to all,

Bill

[Combe Martin]

Green std 5 locos especially 73029. I haven't got the RCTS book on these locos (although I've various other ones) - was 73029 painted green at Eastleigh then? I kind of thought that the WR allocated ones were green then they'd moved on to other regions (or SDJR when it became WR) but that implies that I could have 73029 in black up to mid 1963. More thought on this one, but getting a green one to start with might be better for that inevitable green example. But which one? H'mm.

 

Yes 73029 was repainted green at Eastleigh, so you could renumber either of 73014 or 73049. Eastleighs repaints had lining to both edges of the running plate, wheras Swindon only lined the lower edge. (I had to take the top line off for my 73054). If you renumber a 73049 take off the red dot too.

 

One other thing, a 1967 photo of 73029 shows it with a non standard style of smokebox number plate !.

[geoffers]

".....This is slightly missleading. 73049 was repainted green at Eastleigh in August 1963 when it was still a Bath loco, but was transferred away from the S&D in September 1964. Also the majority of Std 5s that acquired green livery first did so before 1961, that's 26 of them. The remaining 6 out of 32 were repainted green for the first time from 1963 onwards....."

 

 

Oooops - shows what happens when you are away from home too often, rely on a 60 year old brain, and spout something without checking your sources. Apologies.

Still think the Baccy Standard 5 is a nice loco though.

[railroadbill]

Yes 73029 was repainted green at Eastleigh, so you could renumber either of 73014 or 73049. Eastleighs repaints had lining to both edges of the running plate, wheras Swindon only lined the lower edge. (I had to take the top line off for my 73054). If you renumber a 73049 take off the red dot too.

 

One other thing, a 1967 photo of 73029 shows it with a non standard style of smokebox number plate !.

 

Thanks for that, Coombe Martin, 73029 will be another project when I get hold of a green one, going to keep my eye open for one. Went to a model railway exhibition yesterday where there was an RCTS stand, and they just happened to have a copy of "British Railways standard steam locomotives vol.two, 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 classes". So I've got a copy now, very well produced book and lots of useful information, including cab and tender variants. There is a pic of 73112 in 1963 where the cab numbers look aligned with the top of the running plate as you mentioned in an earlier post. The Camelot locomotive society book I've got ("The Standard Arthurs") says that the centre of the nameplates lines up with the centre of the dome, which looks right when looking at side on photographs so the Fox transfers and plates are now going on the model in, I think, the right places. Then for the tender....

 

Been reading Peter Smith's accounts of driving/firing Std 5s on the SDJR (and later SR lines) and am tempted to follow your example and renumber my other Bachmann 5 from 73030 to 73047 so it can go with my other SDJR locos (I've already taken the 30 numbers off so it'll have to be renumbered as something!!)

 

re Geoffers earlier suggestion of using a tender from a Bachmann 9F with BR1F, there is one on ebay at the moment but it's weathered with sound chip and is bid up to £195 so far so perhaps I'll wait for another one.

 

Bill