Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

After rooting around in my old computer files (actually, my 'new' computer dates from 2004!), I've found a couple of pictures of Denys Brownlee's wonderful 2mm FS FLYING SCOTSMAN running on Copenhagen Fields.

 

 

 

From the sublime......................

 

 

 

Apparently I'm informed that these Bassett Lowke O Gauge examples of antiquated bent bits of tinplate are worth a fortune! 

 

Worth more than this..........

 

 

Or so I'm told! 

 

 

 

 

 

[DenysW]

53 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Worth more than this..........

What it is worth (in money) is solely down to what some-one will pay, not intrinsic merit. Think of how much badly-printed, cancelled stamps can sell for.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

After rooting around in my old computer files (actually, my 'new' computer dates from 2004!), I've found a couple of pictures of Denys Brownlee's wonderful 2mm FS FLYING SCOTSMAN running on Copenhagen Fields.

 

 

 

From the sublime......................

 

 

 

Apparently I'm informed that these Bassett Lowke O Gauge examples of antiquated bent bits of tinplate are worth a fortune! 

 

Worth more than this..........

 

 

Or so I'm told! 

 

 

 

 

 

Different world, entirely. Tinplate collecting bears no relationship whatever to scale railway modelling, even though some seem able to maintain interests in both. 

 

As with all collecting, supply and demand rules, though folk who might have owned or yearned for such items when they were current must getting quite thin on the ground by now. 

 

My own tinplate, shared with my brother, was very basic hand-me-down Hornby. It  was all given away once I got a Tri-ang OO set and my brother a Scalextric outfit, and neither of us hold any nostalgia for it.

 

However, at a swap-meet a couple of weeks ago, I was slightly surprised to see that I could have duplicated most of our former collection (and much of it in better condition) at remarkably modest cost. Very little of it seemed to have found new homes by the time I left, either!  

 

John

Edited February 27, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[t-b-g]

I think we are seeing a big change in the market for older models as collectors pass away, collections come onto the market and there are very few new collectors looking to buy the models.

 

I know a few people who collect Hornby Dublo and suchlike and at least one has said that if he was going to make any money from his collection, he should have sold it years ago as there are very few buyers around now.

 

Looking at the Bassett Lowke Flying Scotsman model, I don't know when it was produced but it may have been when the loco was still running in those colours. They painted the splasher tops black. The other FS models, including the preservation era double tender one, have them green.

 

Rather like the red lining on wheels, I am not sure that we really know all the details of such things and we probably never will.

Edited February 27, 2023 by t-b-g
typo

[Clearwater]

I agree that the market for pre 1960 toys has gone.  But the market for nostalgia and recreating your youth remains.  See listing here for late 1970s Lego kits:

I was given one of these in 1979/80 or so and I guess would have retailed for sub £30. Vintage / out of production lego is now quite collectable.  Ditto the original Star Wars action figures.

 

I've no interested in tinplate or Hornby dublo trains.  Would I buy something that I really wanted from a collection?  Possibly... Price would have to be right though!

David

 

[drmditch]

Is the decline of Meccano co-incident with the decline of British engineering industries?

[rodent279]

19 minutes ago, drmditch said:

Is the decline of Meccano co-incident with the decline of British engineering industries?

Possibly/probably coincident with the rise of computer gaming & the software industry.

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

After rooting around in my old computer files (actually, my 'new' computer dates from 2004!), I've found a couple of pictures of Denys Brownlee's wonderful 2mm FS FLYING SCOTSMAN running on Copenhagen Fields.

 

Good afternoon Tony, while agreeing with yours and others' comments about the relative - and often surprising - prices of different collectables these days, may I just say that I think that first picture of Copenhagen Fields is absolutely wonderful?

A great tribute to both the layout and the models running on it. 

Nice photo, too 😉

[Barclay]

On 26/02/2023 at 13:19, Woodcock29 said:

Thanks for this info Jonathan.

 

I've been looking at passenger tank photos in particular tonight. Maybe I can see red lining on some N2 wheels in Yeadon Vol 25. Before, I thought these lines were the joint between the wheel rims and the tyres or between the wheel centre and the axle.

 

In Vol 16 on V1s, V3s and Thompson L1s (which I must admit I've hardly looked at) its very clear that on freshly shopped V1s and V3s they had red lining on the wheels.

 

In Vol 21 which includes the A5s there is no clear evidence of any red-lined black A5s with red-lined wheels.

 

I've learnt a lot tonight - at least some classes, other than J72s, clearly had red-lined wheels.

 

So the lining on the wheels of my Sonic A5 will remain at least for the moment.

 

Andrew

No expert myself, but I've been looking in David Jenkinson's "The Big Four in Colour" - It has 8 colour photo's of lined black engines that are either really clean or ex-works, and none of them have lined wheels. These were all taken in 1938 or 1939, so perhaps the practice was dropped at some stage.

[Chas Levin]

Looking in Ernest Carter's 'British Railway Liveries' he makes almost no mention of wheels in the LNER chapter (other than for 1933 and the white lining around tyres and hubs on Gresley Pacifics) but the lack of mention isn't unusual as he covers a huge amount of information in less detail than some sources, so it's not conclusive either way.

 

He does mention the A5 class though, noting that "1923 (c) The later engines of the "A-5" class were painted (15), described in sources as green, not black, which latter colour was the standard for L.N.E.R. tank types. The engines were however lettered in the standard L.N.E.R. style of the time. For some years after grouping, after they had been repainted glossy black, they continued to have a white line additionally to the standard red one, and continued thus until 1939."

 

For anyone unfamiliar with this 1952 book, Carter provides in the back a numbered painted colour chart and his number 15 is a green that some might judge darker than the usual apple variety, perhaps a little closer to the darker greens used by the GCR and GNR, though I know very well that judging colour shades is a contentious area. Here's a photo, taken in late afternoon daylight, with the surrounding colours removed, as noted in the book as being necessary in order to judge the correct colour registration of an individual shade - please ignore the slight difference in paint surface, caused by ageing of the book:

 

 

This early LNER green is presumably what Sonic have gone for in the L&NER number 6 and to my eye (on a computer screen mind you) the green of that version does look slightly darker than that on the LNER 5167 (the slightly later version with no ampersand). In fact I'd judge it to be the same shade as on the GCR version, though again, I'm only looking online.

 

I hadn't realised that Sonic have also done two LNER lined black versions, 5024 with red lining (which would make it right for post-1939) and 5045 with double white lining, i.e. the black and double white panels that are part of the green passenger livery on side-tanks and bunker sides, with single white lining elsewhere. I'm not sure where that livery comes from - please excuse me if that's already been discussed.

 

Going back to the note in Carter, has anyone seen photographs of the combined red and white lining on the LNER black livery that he mentions as having been present from 1923 to 1939? I failed to spot mention in the book of any other LNER locos having a two colour lining like that (and I'd not actually ever noticed mention of it there before for the A5).

 

Modelling it would be quite distinctive...

Edited February 27, 2023 by Chas Levin

[lezz01]

I don't know much about the LNER and it's constituents so I can't comment on which is right or not but I will say the locos with the lining on the wheels look very nice. The Johnson style of lining is my favourite Midland style of lining although I've only attempted the later Deeley style as I find the Johnson style a little daunting. Of course there is the style used on the Kentish town locos which can only be described as Rococo and I find them to be somewhat over the top. Good luck to anyone attempting to replicate that style in anything under 7mm if you can manage it I salute you and wish my eyes were good enough to attempt it myself.

Regards Lez.    

[micklner]

23 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Looking in Ernest Carter's 'British Railway Liveries' he makes almost no mention of wheels in the LNER chapter (other than for 1933 and the white lining around tyres and hubs on Gresley Pacifics) but the lack of mention isn't unusual as he covers a huge amount of information in less detail than some sources, so it's not conclusive either way.

 

He does mention the A5 class though, noting that "1923 (c) The later engines of the "A-5" class were painted (15), described in sources as green, not black, which latter colour was the standard for L.N.E.R. tank types. The engines were however lettered in the standard L.N.E.R. style of the time. For some years after grouping, after they had been repainted glossy black, they continued to have a white line additionally to the standard red one, and continued thus until 1939."

 

For anyone unfamiliar with this 1952 book, Carter provides in the back a numbered painted colour chart and his number 15 is a green that some might judge darker than the usual apple variety, perhaps a little closer to the darker greens used by the GCR and GNR, though I know very well that this is a contentious area, judging colour shades. Here's a photo, taken in late afternoon daylight, with the surrounding colours removed, as noted in the book as being necessary in order to judge the correct colour registration of an individual shade - please ignore the slight difference in paint surface, caused by aging of the book:

 

 

This early LNER green is presumably what Sonic have gone for in the L&NER number 6 and to my eye (on a computer screen mind you) the green of that version does look slightly darker than that on the LNER 5167 (the slightly later version with no ampersand). In fact I'd judge it to be the same shade as on the GCR version, though again, I'm only looking online.

 

I hadn't realised that Sonic have also done two LNER lined black versions, 5024 with red lining (which would make it right for post-1939) and 5045 with double white lining, i.e. the black and double white panels that are part of the green passenger livery on side-tanks and bunker sides, with single white lining elsewhere. I'm not sure where that livery comes from - please excuse me if that's already been discussed.

 

Going back to the note in Carter, has anyone seen photographs of the combined red and white lining on the LNER black livery that he mentions as having been present from 1923 to 1939? I failed to spot mention in the book of any other LNER locos having those two colour linings like that and I'd not noticed mention of it there before for the A5. Modelling it would be quite distinctive...

LNER Black Locos with Red lining was 1923 to 1928 on all Black Locos.

Hornby have done a ex NBR  J36 red lined in 1923 livery set up ,none on wheels.

From 1928 to 1941 Black Passenger Locos only were lined Red.

No idea whether they classified K3, B16  and such larger Locos as Goods, Mixed Freight or Passenger .

Bachmann have done their K3 in Red Lining  nothing on the wheels.

Hornby a Black D16 with Red Lining nothing on the wheels. Hornby did a post war Black B1 with Red Lining ,not on the wheels again.

I was'nt aware of the A5 LNER liveries either, until I saw the Sonic release photos.

Edited February 27, 2023 by micklner

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Good afternoon Tony, while agreeing with yours and others' comments about the relative - and often surprising - prices of different collectables these days, may I just say that I think that first picture of Copenhagen Fields is absolutely wonderful?

A great tribute to both the layout and the models running on it. 

Nice photo, too 😉

Thanks Chas,

 

Having examples of outstanding modelling in front of my camera does make achieving an 'absolutely wonderful' photograph possible.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I think we are seeing a big change in the market for older models as collectors pass away, collections come onto the market and there are very few new collectors looking to buy the models.

 

I know a few people who collect Hornby Dublo and suchlike and at least one has said that if he was going to make any money from his collection, he should have sold it years ago as there are very few buyers around now.

 

Looking at the Bassett Lowke Flying Scotsman model, I don't know when it was produced but it may have been when the loco was still running in those colours. They painted the splasher tops black. The other FS models, including the preservation era double tender one, have them green.

 

Rather like the red lining on wheels, I am not sure that we really know all the details of such things and we probably never will.

Good evening Tony,

 

I believe that the Bassett Lowke LNER model of FLYING SCOTSMAN was made in the 1930s. The BR one (though the same model - it should be an A3) was made in the early-'50s. 

 

They belonged to the late Pete Marshall who used to say that they gave him the childhood he never had. He had the most-extensive collection of vintage tinplate I've ever see. It was interesting to photograph, even though I have no actual interest in the things themselves, other than as a photo-journalist. 

 

It could well be that 'the bottom is falling out of the market' for such things now, as those who remember them when the models were new succumb to old age. At one Bassett Lowke Society meeting in the noughties, one particularly rare O Gauge B17 was offered in excess of £20,000! It's something I'll never understand. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Bytham's four-weekly get together was great fun (as usual) today. Geoff West and I operated LB perfectly up to lunch; then, a series of operating blunders on my part caused derailments and collisions! One day..........

 

Nonetheless, a most-enjoyable time. David Rae and Pete Bullen joined us in the afternoon, bringing with them a very interesting selection of models to complement the ones Geoff had brought to run.

 

Geoff's included........

 

 

A DJH A1, 60123. This had been acquired by Geoff as a total wreck (the worst kit-building I've ever seen!). How he managed to turn it into something like this is beyond my comprehension. But he did, and Geoff Haynes painted it. 

 

 

And, another DJH A1, this one built/painted by John Houlden (ex-Gamston). 

 

 

A PDK A2/1, again the work of John Houlden.

 

 

A detailed/weathered Hornby B1.

 

 

And, a Crownline V2, again John Houlden's work. 

 

 

A Little Engines J11, built/painted by Rob Kinsey, weathered by me and further weathered by Geoff. 

 

Tom Wright's 9F trundles by in the background. 

 

 

David Rae brought along this BEC J17, for which he'd made a small tender.

 

Tony Geary's work in the form of a detailed/weathered Bachmann K3 and kit-built Comet Gresleys forms the background. 

 

Pete Bullen brought along a selection of kit-built locos he's got for sale (with a generous contribution to CRUK). All of these need attention before they're ready to be sold. I'll report accordingly................

 

Once again, thanks chaps for a wonderful time. 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

18 hours ago, DenysW said:

What it is worth (in money) is solely down to what some-one will pay, not intrinsic merit. Think of how much badly-printed, cancelled stamps can sell for.

Cost, price, value - the eternal triangle.

[bbishop]

Could I ask a question of Flying Scotsman.  What number did she carry when outscored in 1923?  Bill 

[Woodcock29]

Tony 

 

I hope you got the personal email I sent you late last night your time?

 

Andrew

[Tony Wright]

3 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony 

 

I hope you got the personal email I sent you late last night your time?

 

Andrew

I did, thank you Andrew.

 

And, thanks to others as well.

 

I've ordered a couple of Hatton's Genesis carriages. 

 

They're Great Northern, but can be altered to suit. Apparently, I'm quite lucky; most have already sold out, even some on pre-order. 

 

Is this the way of market forces in the hobby now? Buy immediately when something is available, otherwise that's it - there won't be re-runs.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Rummaging through my photo collection of late, I came across images of the three locos I'd built for the Right Track videos, nearly 20 years ago now.

 

 

An Alan Gibson 4F.

 

 

A South Eastern Finecast 61XX.

 

 

And, a DJH A2, which Ian Rathbone painted for me (he also subsequently painted the 61XX). 

 

I also found a shot of a Hornby/Comet/Markits 9F conversion I'd undertaken for a BRM Annual.

 

 

Seen running through Charwelton.

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Could I ask a question of Flying Scotsman.  What number did she carry when outscored in 1923?  Bill 

Good afternoon Bill,

 

1472 until 1925, when she became 4472.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[drmditch]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Could I ask a question of Flying Scotsman.  What number did she carry when outscored in 1923?  Bill 

Outshopped in 1923 as 1472 (a GNR number.)

 

You might find these links helpful  ... from the NRM...  ... and here...

 

There is a lot of misinformation about this locomotive, and sometimes people can get very cross if what they see is not what they are expecting to see!

[bbishop]

Tony, thank you very much.  Bill 

[RAYTHEROCK]

On 27/02/2023 at 13:16, drmditch said:

Is the decline of Meccano co-incident with the decline of British engineering industries?

My, large colection of Meccano - blue chequer-plate, nickel plate, red/green, yellow blue has been taken by my grand-daughter to start a girls' basic engineering group at her school. Good luck to them- pity Meccano was so crude.

[Tony Wright]

My digging through my images revealed another Charwelton picture...........

 

 

Malcolm Nevitt's Stanier Black Five heads north on a fully-fitted freight.

 

Today, of course, diesels run on Charwelton; at least the layout is still going.