David Siddall Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I've used DCC for several years but never ventured into the realms of sound on the grounds that in 4-mil I was never totally convinced by what I was hearing. Having upscaled to 7-mil I thought that maybe the ability to fit larger speakers might give a superior result and was just about to send a Loksound XL V4 off to Howes for the Hymek treatment. However... after listening to several video clips of the real thing (and with memories of that distinctive Maybach music in my mind's ear from Dawlish, Newton Abbot, Aller, Dainton and South Brent in the late 1960s through to the mid 70s I'm now not so sure :-/ There's a very distinctived underlying tone to a Maybach – particularly (IMO) when installed in a Hymek – and as I recall they'd often be throttled back after initial accelleration whereas DCC recordings of sound equipped models don't seem to feature this characteristic overlooking the fact that the engine note isn't directly related the speed at which the loco is travelling. I've messaged 'Legoman Biffo' but he doesn't currently do a Hymek... can anyone suggest any other options? There's a good example of starting under load followed by throttling back on this video from 5:10 to 6:25. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I have the Howes sound on a LokSound v3.5. This is in 4mm scale so no room for huge speakers but I am happy with the sound from two speakers in parallel. As you said, it is possible to fit much larger and more powerful speakers in 7mm scale, and the bass responses will be much better too. Nudging the throttle back slightly after accelerating from a standing start will let the engine revs drop back to idle. It may be possible with the LokSound v4 decoders to program an intermediate throttle setting rather like Bryan (of Howes) has done with his more recent steam locomotive sounds. Sound in any scale less than 1:1 is going to be a compromise. It is up to the owner as to whether the sounds meet his/her expectations of a model. To me it does add an extra dimension to 'driving' my trains but it is not to everyone's tastes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Hi David. Try this. On your XL decoder you will find a Red Peg,its small plastic slotted over 2 vertical pins on the decoder,wrapped under the plastic film. Slice the film close to this peg,remove the peg,it works as a resistor for the speaker lowering the OHMS. Then have a listen to your Hymek, I did this to my Deltic and class 25,I found it allows a better balance of sounds through the bigger speaker. Some loco's it really improves the sounds. Also ensure the speaker is sealed with sealent,i use the sort that you put posters on the wall.. Adie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2012 There's a very distinctived underlying tone to a Maybach – particularly (IMO) when installed in a Hymek – and as I recall they'd often be throttled back after initial accelleration whereas DCC recordings of sound equipped models don't seem to feature this characteristic overlooking the fact that the engine note isn't directly related the speed at which the loco is travelling. There's a good example of starting under load followed by throttling back on this video from 5:10 to 6:25. David The throttling back is to allow the gear change to take place without too much power on - a not infrequent cause of failures with them in their early days and what led to 50% of the class being derated while the other 50% had 2nd gear locked out. The earlier driving trick was to throttle back if they didn't cleanly change up to 2nd (or didn't change up to 2nd at all as happened on one occasion when I was riding on one - the Driver went back to try a hand gear change and put me in the seat after checking that I knew what signals were where ). The engine on that one sounds a bit off to be honest and the clouds of black smoke on starting suggests to me that things are not quite right with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Hi David, What speaker did you install and where. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Haven't quite got to that stage yet mate, still researching. Speaker-wise Legomanbiffo recommended "...a QSI 40mm (or two)" or, "if one will fit a Visaton 40x70mm" when he replied to my enquiry about whether he also did a Hymek re-blow. I'm waiting for Tam Valley Depot's 'booster boards' to come back into stock at Digitrains (a fraction of the cost of NCE's own booster for my PowerCab hence I'm happy to be patient) so I'll give them a call about speakers after the hols so they can be added to my order. D PS: Whatever speakers I use, and much as I admire those who have milled away chunks of chassis or custom-built replacement circuit boards, this installation is going to be the best I can manage with the minimum of physical mods – apart from ditching the Heljan PCB and the motorised fan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 The engine on that one sounds a bit off to be honest and the clouds of black smoke on starting suggests to me that things are not quite right with it. Maybe the clag's a bit of a distraction in the vid' I posted earlier but this one's similarly representative of the type of low-speed movement my model is going to be undertaking on 'Little Shunting on the Plank' and the sound I so want to hear... ...in all examples I can find online generated by the Howes offering what I'm missing is what I can only describe as that distinctive high-revving Maybach 'thrummm' :-) David PS: I thought most diesel engines tend to smoke a bit when opened up vigorously from low revs... ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Thanks 'SRMan' and Adie... A useful driving tip 'SRMan' and certainly filed away for future reference. Adie, I'll definitely bear ditching the peg in mind when I finally get to the installation stage. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2012 Maybe the clag's a bit of a distraction in the vid' I posted earlier but this one's similarly representative of the type of low-speed movement my model is going to be undertaking on 'Little Shunting on the Plank' and the sound I so want to hear... ...in all examples I can find online generated by the Howes offering what I'm missing is what I can only describe as that distinctive high-revving Maybach 'thrummm' :-) David PS: I thought most diesel engines tend to smoke a bit when opened up vigorously from low revs... ??? Much better Hymek sound on that loco I reckon. Notice too the absence of black smoke and far less smoke of any kind - clearly an engine in far better health than t'other one. (The reason for the smoke is usually surplus fuel collecting in the fuel racks when the engine is idling and coming through the engine when power is increased. When an engine is in good condition there shouldn't be too much of this surplus fuel and it will also burn fairly cleanly as it goes through the engine - producing smoke that's a pale grey grey colour and not too dense, just as it was on D7017 in this video. Black smoke suggests potential problems - poor combustion, dirty injectors, etc, or worse). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Hi David, I have the Visaton 40 x 70 fitted in my Heljan and JLTRT locos and they are very good. In fact I have dual speaker installation using the Visaton to supply the bass end and the ESU round 40mm speaker mounted under the fan openings to give the high end frequencies and I find the combination very good. But like has been said many times, the installation has to be good otherwise whatever speaker you use will flop due to poor installation. make sure the back of the speaker is sealed, in a sound box, baffle. But I expect you are well ahead of the game and already know all this. Bristol show on the 20th looming fast. Another set of tentative steps there perhaps. Bacon sandwich awaiting opening again like before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 It is worth repeating the advice even if David already knows; others reading this thread may be trying the same things but may possibly be less experienced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted December 31, 2012 Author Share Posted December 31, 2012 Those Visiton 40 x 70s certainly seem to get a very good press – though quite where something that big might go in an unmodified Hymek I'm not so sure? Bearing in mind the modest nature of my layout and the fact that the loco will never be hauling more than a few wagons and doing a little light shunting I keep coming back to the idea of ditching one of the motors. I'm guessing that would give space for a decent-sized speaker in a sensibly sized enclosure and hoping it wouldn't reduce performance to an unacceptable degree? I'm also sure I saw an article (possibly a series of articles) on creating your own sound files. I've been editing video and its associated audio for years and I'm just beginning to wonder... usual old challenge though, time :-/ David PS: Bristol's in the diary :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Hi David, I don't have a Heljan Hymek but have lots of the other ones by them in O gauge. If like the others, except Cl20, there is a big cavity under the circuit board and the speaker will fit into the space there. You just need to clip the corners of the speaker so it drops down between the pillars that support the circuit board. The speaker will sit above the chassis slightly so I bed the speaker down into blue tack which also seals the cavity and makes a very nice sound chamber. Mount another smaller speaker some other place as well to give the high end frequencies. Not done a Hymek so cannot help much sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Thought, bring said loco and screw drivers and I will meet you at the Bristol Show with the speaker and I can show you how it fits. That is if you are going to the show. AJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 I had the opportunity to check out the space available when I had the loco apart last month to replace it's split gear but thanks for the offer anyway :-) Just waiting to see how mental things go now that the hol's are over but have every intention of getting over to Bristol if I can. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Will be good to see you again. Hard to believe a year has gone by since the bacon sandwich waiting for things to kick off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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