Tri-ang models in cellulose acetate - how long till they warped?

[darkwolf]

I always wondered if it depended on how much light they were exposed to. I have some models that are definitely cellulose acetate but which have hardly distorted - others have gone into full banana configuration. I'll try to find some examples and photograph them next week.

[Il Grifone]

I always wondered if it depended on how much light they were exposed to. I have some models that are definitely cellulose acetate but which have hardly distorted - others have gone into full banana configuration. I'll try to find some examples and photograph them next week.

 

First Welcome to RMweb!

 

Storage conditions are a factor and sunlight (or probably the heat?) definitely causes warping - it is enough to warp polystyrene).

 

I made the mistake of storing some Tri-ang and Rovex LMS coaches on top of a wardrobe. They were reasonably straight when I put them there, but banana shaped when I next looked some time later.

[darkwolf]

Thanks for the welcome!!

 

I'm just glad they swapped to polystyrene when they did!

[andyman7]

Having originally started this thread because I am rather too young to have been able to buy any CA Triang items new, the replies here and subsequent observations do confirm that storage seems to make quite a difference. It appears that storage in a consistent temperate environment is most conducive to good survival - the variations of environment seem to be more critical than the actual temperature in exacerbating the stresses in the plastic. The Princess and the R20 LMS coaches do seem to be the worst affected because the mould design of later models appears to compensate somewhat for the stresses CA models experience.

 

Final question - does anyone know of any R55 Transcontinental diesels made in CA?  

[Il Grifone]

I think most of the TC range escaped the cellulose acetate problem, though a switcher I bought once did have an acetate battery box, which had duly warped.

 

Transparent windows are another matter however - this affects all makes and they have either shrunk or bowed out of the window aperture (or both).

 

The Princess and coaches (and the ex Trackmaster wagons) are the earliest Tri-ang models and most prone, though the Jintys are always distorted (at least the ones I've seen!) Trix Cadet 0-4-0Ts also suffer (along with all the other early plastic Trix items).

 

Though of an age to have bought acetate Tri-ang* new, I managed to avoid it - my parents had the foresight to buy Dublo (possibly all they could get it late 1951), shortage of pocket money and I had been warned that "Tri-ang warps" - the effect must have been apparent quite quickly. My first Tri-ang wagon was the bolster wagon, but this was almost certainly polystyrene. It would run through Dublo points, despite being told it wouldn't, albeit with a bit of a bump. Peco came to the rescue with the couplings - their kits worked quite well with the type II coupling, though less so with the mark III (or perhaps it's just me?)

 

*I did have some Minic lorries, but don't remember any of them warping - perhaps these were polystyrene, and the Minic ships - none of these survived long enough as they sank and ruined the clockwork motor.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

<SNIPPED>

 

Though of an age to have bought acetate Tri-ang* new, I managed to avoid it - my parents had the foresight to buy Dublo (possibly all they could get it late 1951), shortage of pocket money and I had been warned that "Tri-ang warps" - the effect must have been apparent quite quickly. My first Tri-ang wagon was the bolster wagon, but this was almost certainly polystyrene. It would run through Dublo points, despite being told it wouldn't, albeit with a bit of a bump. Peco came to the rescue with the couplings - their kits worked quite well with the type II coupling, though less so with the mark III (or perhaps it's just me?)

 

*I did have some Minic lorries, but don't remember any of them warping - perhaps these were polystyrene, and the Minic ships - none of these survived long enough as they sank and ruined the clockwork motor.

 

The PECO Tri-ang to Hornby Dublo couplings seem to have been designed for the MkII (Open Loop) couplings, and to have been quickly provided with adaptors to "fit" the MKIII (Closed Loop) Couplings. (Probably PECO were "caught out" by the change to MKIII Tension lock couplings, a development of the Tri-ang TT Gauge couplings, in 1959...)

 

As you have to destroy the Tri-ang MKIII coupling and bend the remnants to attach the adaptor, it cannot be said to be an "elegant" solution. The MKIIb method is very nicely done by comparison!

 

Likewise the PECO conversion wheels, which were a straight swap using the Tri-ang axles.

 

Various moulds were made in such a way as to limit the inbuilt stresses, like the R.71 footbridge which hardly warps. Others were not so well made.

[Il Grifone]

I never had great success with the Mk III couplings. Mounting the adapter was not a great problem, but cutting the Peco coupling to fit resulted in too much vertical play for satisfactory operation.

 

I usually splashed out 2/6d for the metal version and either drilled three holes or glued it (I didn't do all that many!)

[andyman7]

The trade-pack plunger Princesses I was lucky enough to acquire this week are virtually un-distorted. It helps that they have the behind-the-bufferbeam screw rather than the chimney screw as the introduction of the latter required a locating lip to be added to the rear of the front bufferbeam and this is a cause of a lot of stress on CA Princess bodies, but nevertheless they are incredibly straight:

. 

[Old Tearaway]

I have an original Rovex LMS coach that hasn't warped and another that came with it that had the roof warped into a banana shape probally because these had the rooves screwed down by the bogie mounting screws. The warped roof one had had the bogie removed when I aquired it 20 odd years ago and required a jig around it and a bath in boiling water to straighten.

 

Celuose acetate is very soft and pliable when exposed to boiling water and will retain the final shape it is given when dunked in cold water.

 

Warping tends to be linked to the mixture ratio of the  celuose acetate and the mould temperature at the time of casting. Some started to warp the moment that they were pulled from the mould, others didn't.

 

I have quite a few celuose acetate Triang items that seemed to have been blessed with immunity to warping. 

 

Polystyrene has its aging problems as well such as brittleness due to decades of domestic central heating envioronments and the gradual evaporation certain chemicals from its substance. Some Triang polystyrene stuff is very brittle and shatters like glass when dropped. Unfortunately plastic gradually decays though it will take a few centuries to seperate back into its various organic constituents.

[andyman7]

The mould design had a big influence on how badly an item could warp, the better designed moulds managed the stresses so that the shape held better. The Jinty is a good example, although they go a bit wonky they have nothing like the issues that the Princess or R20 coach has.

 

In most cases our polystyrene models will long outlive us but sometimes the brittleness comes on much more quickly. Not being a chemist I don't know to what extent any variation in the constitution of a batch of plastic can contribute to this, and to what extent it is due to heat or sunlight, but I have had items that shatter. The bogie frames fitted to the first batch of Hornby Networker Class 466 EMUs are very prone to shattering (which explains why spare bogie frames are nigh-on impossible to find) - they were made in 1997.

[Il Grifone]

It always seems to be the ends (and roofs) of Trackmaster wagons that warp rather than the sides which suggests some sort of stress.

 

I'm not a chemist either, but brittleness in polystyrene is due to insufficient plasticiser I believe. This can be due to bad mixing or contact with materials which cause it to leech out e.g. P.V.C. will cause damage if the two materials are if left in contact. (I have a Lima Horse box and a Blue Pullman centre car showing evidence of this - from before they came under my protection I hasten to add - they are in the 'to do' list*.......)

 

*This list is lengthy!

[Ruffnut Thorston]

"Bubblewrap" is a source of strange damage, as are some forms of foam....including the foam used by Tri-ang Hornby for the packing in some tenders (Including the "Hall") and for packing in some later boxes!

 

Beware the perils of Bubblewrap!

[sagaguy]

Many years ago,i went to a dealer in Romford i think,to buy a buff Esso H/D wagon,i can`t remember the dealers name now but he was at a lot of N.& E London swapmeets.He`d bought a collection of tinplate wagons etc & they had been wrapped in clingfilm.The Polymer in the plastic had migrated onto the Litho finish & left them practically worthless so beware.The HRCA recommend acid free tisuue paper for wrapping your treasured possesions in.

 

                                       Ray.

[andyman7]

"Bubblewrap" is a source of strange damage, as are some forms of foam....including the foam used by Tri-ang Hornby for the packing in some tenders (Including the "Hall") and for packing in some later boxes!

 

Beware the perils of Bubblewrap!

That foam is lethal, in most cases it is just dust although I have one boxed 60s loco with the surviving foam packing still largely intact. The foam is wrapped in tissue and the loco also tissue wrapped to keep the two apart. This is pretty much what you get now if you find a loco stored in the original foam:

 

[roythebus]

Another awful source of foam is old bus seats! That's what gives the vintage buses a distinct smell inside, the ageing Dunlopillo moulded foam they used. It is very noxious when burnt, so a warning not to burn any old foam you may have! 

[Nimbus]

P1100970.JPG

That foam is lethal, [...] This is pretty much what you get now if you find a loco stored in the original foam:

Did you manage to clean it off/out without collateral damage?

 

The Nim.

[andyman7]

Did you manage to clean it off/out without collateral damage?

 

The Nim.

It's off all the cosmetic bits but it won't be run until I've thoroughly cleaned the mechanism.

[Old Tearaway]

Another awful source of foam is old bus seats! That's what gives the vintage buses a distinct smell inside, the ageing Dunlopillo moulded foam they used. It is very noxious when burnt, so a warning not to burn any old foam you may have! 

..... Unless upwind of the mother-in-law.....