How often was mainline track renewed

[Brassey]

My interest is in the LNWR/GWR joint line Shrewsbury to Hereford.  I have read that the GWR took over responsibility of the permanent way in 1909.  Presumably the LNWR had the responsibility prior to that.  I do not know if anyone has the answer but my question is, how often would the mainline track be renewed and in doing so would the GWR have relaid the track to their standards or kept the LNWR standards?  I understand that the norm was for worn out mainline track to be re-used in sidings.  Was this replaced complete with sleepers intact or just the rail?

 

The issue behind my asking is that my period of interest is 1912 and therefore I want to know, if possible, which track standards to use as the LNWR and GWR were different.  My assumption at present is that the mainlines by then would have probably been relaid to GWR standards but the sidings still remained to LNWR standards.

 

I have my trackplan mapped out in Templot but I just want a view on the standards before I start building any track.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi Peter,

 

The life span of a particular length of track will obviously be determined by the amount and type of traffic using it and to an extent its location e.g. track on tight curves will usually wear faster than that on straight sections. I wouldn't imagine that GWR policy would be to replace track just to see their initials on the chairs etc, therefore, an interesting mixture might be possible e.g. the up line renewed but the down line still dating from LNWR days. Maybe the LNWR society has some information. Some companies salvaged and reused suitable track parts too.

 

Cheers

 

Dave 

[martin_wynne]

Hi Peter,

 

If the LNWR was responsible for the track until 1909, and you are modelling only 3 years later, I think it is extremely likely that the track would still be mainly LNWR, with possible spot rewewals by the GWR where needed.

 

BRT4 says "Normally, the life of timber-sleepered jointed main line averages up to about 18 years. After this period the running line is relaid with new material, and the greater part of the displaced material (if serviceable) is re-used in sidings or on secondary lines."

 

But within that average there are a lot of variables. Generally for a busy main line, the rails wear out before the sleepers, and sometimes new rail would be laid in existing sleepers and chairs after about 10 years. Generally on branch lines the reverse is the case, and the sleepers are life-expired from decay before the rails are worn out. The life of close-grained Baltic redwood sleepers is about 30 years. But where faster-growing timber such as Douglas fir has been used for economy, life-expectancy is only about 15 years.

 

Add into that the effects of local climate and ground conditions, type of traffic, and effectiveness of previous maintenance, and you can see that there is no simple answer to the lifetime of track.In yards and sidings to the end of steam it was possible to find track going back to pre-grouping days and earlier.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Armchair Modeller]

Another possibility to consider is that the joint line had some degree of autonomy prior to the GWR taking over responsibility for trackwork in 1909. Looking at the LNWR Signalling book, there was an engineer responsible for the Hereford and Birkenhead area joint lines based in Birkenhead. The book only discusses signalling, but the engineer's office continued to exist for many years after signalling matters were transferred to the owning companies - until 1909 when the last incumbent (coincidence or not) retired. I wonder if maybe he was responsible for all engineering, including trackwork, at one time or another? Signalling certainly had a local character until the LNWR took over responsibility in 1885.

[Brassey]

Thanks for all your feedback.  In conclusion I think my assumption was therefore wrong and that the track would have all still been to LNWR standards.  The HMRS book on the Birkenhead confirms that the LNWR took responsibility for PW when the Joint committee was first formed. Thanks Armchair Modeller for pointing me in that direction.

 

I have asked the same question of the L&NWR Society of which I am a member.  I didn't think they would advise on GWR track!

 

Martin, can Templot be configured to the LNWR track spacings which I think was 60 foot lengths with 24 sleepers?  I think the default is 60 foot but I'm not sure about the sleepers/spacing.  I can't check as I am currently on a mac.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[martin_wynne]

Martin, can Templot be configured to the LNWR track spacings?

 

Hi Peter,

 

Yes -- assuming you know what they were. My information for LNWR is as follows (from C. J. Allen, 1915):

 

60ft rails, 24 sleepers per length.

 

Spacings to sleeper centres from rail end:

 

12" to first sleeper

 

1 space at 27.3/4"

 

21 spaces at 30.1/2"

 

1 space at 27.3/4"

 

12" to rail end.

 

Total = 720" = 60ft.

 

End sleepers 12" wide. All others 10" wide. All 9ft long.

 

Heavier chairs than standard on the wider end sleepers.

 

 

If you need more LNWR data, the LNWR Society should be able to help.

 

Stuart Hince has written a tutorial on setting up custom rail lengths and sleeper spacings in Templot. It's specifically for the GWR, so just change the numbers accordingly for the LNWR data:

 

http://templot.com/martweb/pdf_files/gwr_track_panels.pdf

 

 

edit:

Copied to Templot Club forum: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2137&forum_id=1

There may be some replies.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Brassey]

Thanks very much Martin.  That's my task for the weekend sorted....

 

Peter

[Jol Wilkinson]

When I built some new track I had  some jigs cut laser cut from thin ply to hold the sleeper spacings. Two of these were glued to a r piece of 6mm ply and used to construct the panels two at a time as one length, using C&L timber sleepers and 4 bolt plastic chairs.

 

LNWR track panel jig v2.pdf

 

Jol

[Brassey]

When I built some new track I had  some jigs cut laser cut from thin ply to hold the sleeper spacings. Two of these were glued to a r piece of 6mm ply and used to construct the panels two at a time as one length, using C&L timber sleepers and 4 bolt plastic chairs.

 

LNWR track panel jig v2.pdf

 

Jol

Thanks very much for this Jol,  I made a jig like this for GWR 44 1/2 ft track many years ago which I still have.  I was half hoping that the GWR specs would be appropriate so I could reuse that one!  I mounted mine on deeper board and screwed a length of brass at the edge at the correct distance so i could use the 3 point jigs to hold the first track in place and keep the rail straight.  In those days there was no laser cutting so I must have cut it all myself by hand!  Now how do I go about getting a jig like this laser cut?

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[Jol Wilkinson]

Thanks very much for this Jol,  I made a jig like this for GWR 44 1/2 ft track many years ago which I still have.  I was half hoping that the GWR specs would be appropriate so I could reuse that one!  I mounted mine on deeper board and screwed a length of brass at the edge at the correct distance so i could use the 3 point jigs to hold the first track in place and keep the rail straight.  In those days there was no laser cutting so I must have cut it all myself by hand!  Now how do I go about getting a jig like this laser cut?

 

Cheers

 

Peter

Peter,

 

Brian Lewis (ex C&L and Timbertracks) produced mine for me.

 

York Model Making http://www.yorkmodelmaking.com/services/ would probably also do them.

 

I can let you have a copy of the original CorelDraw file if that would help.

 

Jol

[Brassey]

Hi Peter,

 

Yes -- assuming you know what they were. My information for LNWR is as follows (from C. J. Allen, 1915):

 

60ft rails, 24 sleepers per length.

 

Spacings to sleeper centres from rail end:

 

12" to first sleeper

 

1 space at 27.3/4"

 

21 spaces at 30.1/2"

 

1 space at 27.3/4"

 

12" to rail end.

 

Total = 720" = 60ft.

 

End sleepers 12" wide. All others 10" wide. All 9ft long.

 

Heavier chairs than standard on the wider end sleepers.

 

 

If you need more LNWR data, the LNWR Society should be able to help.

 

Stuart Hince has written a tutorial on setting up custom rail lengths and sleeper spacings in Templot. It's specifically for the GWR, so just change the numbers accordingly for the LNWR data:

 

http://templot.com/martweb/pdf_files/gwr_track_panels.pdf

 

 

edit:

Copied to Templot Club forum: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2137&forum_id=1

There may be some replies.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Peter,

 

Brian Lewis (ex C&L and Timbertracks) produced mine for me.

 

York Model Making http://www.yorkmodelmaking.com/services/ would probably also do them.

 

I can let you have a copy of the original CorelDraw file if that would help.

 

Jol

Thanks again Jol and I am actually installing CorelDraw as I type!!!  Will I need to send them that file or can they work from a pdf?  You can PM me the file if you like.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[Brassey]

Hi Peter,

 

Yes -- assuming you know what they were. My information for LNWR is as follows (from C. J. Allen, 1915):

 

60ft rails, 24 sleepers per length.

 

Spacings to sleeper centres from rail end:

 

12" to first sleeper

 

1 space at 27.3/4"

 

21 spaces at 30.1/2"

 

1 space at 27.3/4"

 

12" to rail end.

 

Total = 720" = 60ft.

 

End sleepers 12" wide. All others 10" wide. All 9ft long.

 

Heavier chairs than standard on the wider end sleepers.

 

 

If you need more LNWR data, the LNWR Society should be able to help.

 

Stuart Hince has written a tutorial on setting up custom rail lengths and sleeper spacings in Templot. It's specifically for the GWR, so just change the numbers accordingly for the LNWR data:

 

http://templot.com/martweb/pdf_files/gwr_track_panels.pdf

 

 

edit:

Copied to Templot Club forum: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2137&forum_id=1

There may be some replies.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Sorry forgot to add that I have configured the track spacings in Templot as per the guide Martin posted.  Works a treat - thanks very much Martin.  Now the plain track is sorted - next up the turnouts.  Peter

[martin_wynne]

Thanks again Jol and I am actually installing CorelDraw as I type!!!

 

Hi Peter,

 

You can export a DXF file from Templot -- output > export a file... menu item. De-select the rails and other details in the DXF dialog if you want only the sleepers (i.e. set the colours of everything else to none).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Western Star]

As you are intending to model the Shrewsbury-Hereford line circa 1912 then I suggest that you obtain a copy of the LNWRS publication about the photographs of Pilcher...  LNWR Modeller has this title on the London Road Models stand.  Pilcher was photographing in the Shrewsbury area in late Victorian / early Edwardian period and many photos show trackwork details.  However, be wary for there are several photos which show track of an earlier age and the turnout timbering is different to the 1909 drawings in the National Archive (copies available throught the LNWRS).  For example, use of 14" wide timbers throughout the turnout.

 

The sleeper spacing given for the 60' rail lengths is appropriate where the rail, sleepers and ballast bed are renewed at the same time.  Persusal of "LNWR photo albums" such as LNWR Miscellany, LNWR Railway Heritage, LNWR in the West Midlands show rails with 20, 21, 22 and 24 sleepers per length.  Whilst the photos are not sufficiently clear as to provide scaling information I suggest that the photos show instances where the LWNR has replaced 30' rails with 60' rails without disturbing the sleepers.  Hence two sections of 30' rail with ten sleepers per length gives a 60' rail with twenty sleepers whilst two 30' rail lengths with eleven sleepers per gives a 60' rail length with twenty two sleepers.

 

regards, Graham Beare

[Jol Wilkinson]

Peter,

 

PM sent re CorelDraw file.

 

Jol

[Brassey]

Thanks for the information Graham.  I didn't think that the LNWRS might have drawings of the turnouts so that is something that I will start to persue asap.  I do have the Pilcher book by David Patrick.  There is also another member of the LNWRS who is working on a book on Shrewsbury and he has shared much information with me.  There are also more Pilcher images at the NRM some of which I have seen.  These have been a great inspiration to me paticularly the mix of through carriages in some photos from both the GWR and LNWR. 

 

Thanks also to Jol for offering to share the jig template artwork.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[unclebobkt]

 -- How refreshing to read an erudite conversation about something so esoteric as railways' track - in this case the L&NWR's. Shrewsbury area in the early C20..

 - All too often, I fear,  eyes start glazing-over at anything much lower than a locomotive's running plate and conversation changes back ASAP. to considerations of a loco's. paintwork: the precise shade of Improved locomotive ... , from the Bide-a-wee shops in such-and-such a time, or whatever.

 --  :-)

[The Stationmaster]

With any joint line you need to establish who was responsible for what when especially if you are going to this level of detail.  The arrangements varied in some cases one company dealt with whatever on a permanent basis while the other was responsible for something else, in other cases things were in the hands of a company for a set period before changing to the other and sometimes this could be for as little as a year.

[Brassey]

With any joint line you need to establish who was responsible for what when especially if you are going to this level of detail.  The arrangements varied in some cases one company dealt with whatever on a permanent basis while the other was responsible for something else, in other cases things were in the hands of a company for a set period before changing to the other and sometimes this could be for as little as a year.

Hi Mike

 

According to my research, the responsibility for the PW moved to the GWR from the LNWR in 1909.  As I am modelling 1912, however, I am assuming that the PW had not been renewed during the previous 3 years - hence the topic of my question and replied to here.  So I have already laid all the track out to LNWR standards and am using Jol's gig for some of the plain track.  However, the GWR did have a gang based at Berrington & Eye around that time, as one ganger is listed on the WW1 memorial at Chester, so they might have renewed that track earlier; I just don't know.  If anyone can prove me wrong then I'll relay all the track!  The whole route was built by Thomas Brassey in the 1860's or so, so it's possible that the siding still existed from that time unchanged.

[Brassey]

 -- How refreshing to read an erudite conversation about something so esoteric as railways' track - in this case the L&NWR's. Shrewsbury area in the early C20..

 - All too often, I fear,  eyes start glazing-over at anything much lower than a locomotive's running plate and conversation changes back ASAP. to considerations of a loco's. paintwork: the precise shade of Improved locomotive ... , from the Bide-a-wee shops in such-and-such a time, or whatever.

 --  :-)

 

Thanks for your comments and support.  I am currently constructing the trackwork to LNWR specs including the 12" sleepers at each section end.  I also have access to the original track specifications from the LNWR for 1909 and have superimposed the turnout drawings over the templot plans using Photoshop so these will be as prototypical as I can build.  The L&NWR Society does have a document that shows when each section of line was renewed, but this being a Joint line, it is not included unfortunately.

 

I'll put some more pics up in due course but some earlier ones are in my layout thread.  Cheers.  Peter