Smoother running

[jazzer]

 I have had a spell of buying new locos for the first time in about 10 years for a new layout I am building, based on Swanage but with the usual compromises for space.  There is about  a 12ft scenic area up to the buffers so I need locos that will run into the station area at a scale 20mph and slow to a smooth stop , plus of course smooth shunting speeds in the yard. The two Hornby M7's which will form the basis of the layout are near perfect and I coulndn't be happier with them but as for some of the "visiting" locos these are so far a disappointment..

A Hornby standard class 4 4-6-0 and a Grange are not as smooth as my 10-year old Bachman Pannier and Prairie. The problem is that they both seem to have tight spot which is not evident until about a scale 15mph then there is a stiffness at a certain point that makes the running a little uneven, although the M7's are near-perfect on the same section of track and the old pannier and prairie are better. Both have had a couple of hours running in.

The other new loco, a Bachman class 3 2-6-2 tank has me in absolute despair. It is the third one, the previous two having gone back to the shop as being absolutely rough runners. This one is better but after about 5hours running in and a wheel clean it is still worse than any of the others and has a tight spot that results in jerky running at lower speeds. I am tempted to send it to Bachman but I have heard they are not very helpful and I don't want to incur the cost if it can be easily sorted at home.

All these problems would not affect  anyone with a continuous run but on a terminus layout (and plenty of us have them) they spoil the  whole realism of the thing.  I am using a gauge master controller which is of course non-DCC

Any suggestions as to what I can try to improve the running would be much appreciated. I don't really want to spend any more on locos if the standard has gone backwards since I bought my pannier and prairie.

Thanks in advance

[Silver Sidelines]

Welcome to China (made in). I know how you feel!

 

My money would be on less than perfect quartering although I do believe that there can also be issues with the nylon gears between the worm drive on the motor and the main driving axle and also rubbish lubricant - but that is on much older models.

 

I have purchased replacement wheel sets from both Bachmann and Hornby for different locomotives with various degrees of success. I was so fed up with one of Bachmann's Colletts that I gently prised one set of wheels apart and requartered them by eye - must have been lucky because it was very successful. I repeated the procedure on another engine but had to use a drop of Super Glue on one of the axles because the plastic insulating bush would no longer grip the wheel tight enough.

 

Good luck.

 

Ray

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It is of value to know the frequency and location of the stiffness or hesitation that you are seeing.

 

Once (or twice) per driving wheel revolution and always at the same point(s) in the cycle? That anchors it to the driving wheelsets including the axle gear. On outside cylinder locos, a connecting rod fouling on a leading driver crankpin is a very common defect (or even both sides if it has been well brutalised). I often wince when I see a hand go around such a loco, it doesn't take much to slightly bend a rod. If unsure, take the connecting rods off and run the chassis coupling rods only. Snagging wiper pick ups or other chassis hardware are more common as a cause than wheels out of quarter in my more recent experience.

 

Hesitation moving around relative to the driving wheel cycle? That's internal, an eccentric, damaged, split, contaminated or tight in its location intermediate gear the most usual cause. Last one of these I had, there was a small moulded bump on the face of a large gear boss, and a slight narrowing of the chassis recess in which this gear located to make a small bind every time the bump went past. Shaved the bump off, perfect.

[jazzer]

Thanks for your comments.

I should perhaps mention that I also have a Hornby L1which was a dodgy runner but I gave the wheels a good clean and fiddled around  with it a bit and now its pretty good. I wasn't quite sure what I did that actually improved it but looking back in the light of what you have both said I am pretty sure I (inadvertently) moved the L/H rear driving wheel very slightly on its axle and more by luck than judgement have improved the slow running, so I think you are pointing me in the right direction.

 

The locos I mentioned all have a stiffness that occurs once per cycle, always in the same place so it slows down slightly for about a third of a revolution and then speeds up again. If it was a kit with Romford gears I would say the gearwheel was not a tight fit on the axle and was being moved slightly off-centre when the securing screw is tightened. That's the sort of fault it seems to be but I wouldn't expect it with Hornby gears (could be wrong though), but they are sealed and I don't really fancy stripping it down that far.

 

The Grange is about the same in each direction and is just about tolerable, although nowhere near as good as the M7s. The standard class 4 is a brain teaser because it is actually fairly smooth in reverse but has this stiffness going forward which makes it difficult to bring to a smooth stop and I really need to improve it. Nothing wrong with the connecting rods though.

 

The Bachman class3 tank is the real nuisance. It seems a little  better in reverse than forwards but overall it is not a much better runner than some of the stuff we had 30 years ago. I really like the loco but I don't really want to touch another Bachman until I get this sorted.

Sorry if this sounds a bit vague but any further suggestions would be appreciated and I do appreciate your advice already given. Thanks.

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks for your comments.

Hello again

 

Your frustration with the Bachmann 3MT made me think.  Mine has been sat at the back of the shed for some time but I do recollect that it was very stiff when bought.  I took it out this afternoon and gave it a bit of a run and then recorded this

  It still sounds very 'tight' but to my mind its performance is acceptable.  It is an HD video - and don't ask where all the sounds were coming from.  I use Gaugemaster DS controllers - so is the performance better or worse than your 3MT?

 

Hope this is of assistance

 

Regards

 

Ray

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I suppose it is all a matter of taste and inclination. Personally I would have them in pieces to get down to where the trouble lies, the assembly is usually fairly simple, and the areas to look for any given symptom easy to identify. Ten years ago it was a rare OO loco that didn't need this treatment, I tended to regard them as assembled kits with the potential to perform well, but frequently compromised by less than ideal assembly. A bit of tweaking and all was well.

 

Latterly though I have been doing very little of this: Bachmann's Fairburn 4MTT, 9F, G2A, ROD, A2, 3F, B1, V2, C have all fallen out of the box and onto the track and run smoothly and quietly; often straight away, or if not within about five minutes. (The V2 I have had to pieces because of an overlarge gear reduction ratio, couldn't fault the chassis for smooth performance though.) Hornby's Britannia, M7, L1, B1, O1, similarly all very smooth, the L1's and B1's a little growly but still smooth, quieting with about  an hour of running.

 

You might have some claggy grease on axle gears is one thought if the models were in store for years between purchase and operation.

[jazzer]

Once again. thanks for your helpful comments, and especially the video clip which has given me a standard (excuse the pun) to aim for.

 

If my Bachman was a good as the loco in the video clip I would be happy but there is obviously a lot of room for improvement. Its freezing cold in the garage at the moment so I don't want to start anything major until it warms up a bit but I have put a tiny drop of oil at the back of the motor shaft and on the worm gear (the only readily accessible points) and that seems to have quietened it to an acceptable level (so much for  a factory lubricated sealed motor ! ).  The minimal oiling has also made the running a bit smoother but the tight spot is still there. The only difference is that instead of a stiffness for almost a half-revolution of the wheel as I said previously there is now just on small tight spot although it causes quite a significant jerk at that point and the loco is still not totally happy ay low speed.

 

All this suggest to me that the problem is something to do with the gears so maybe the next step is to have the motor of and give it a bit of a clean. Do you both agree of have any other suggestions ?

 

Once again thanks for taking the time to reply and I am pleased to see that some Bachmans run well so perhaps I have just been unlucky.

[Silver Sidelines]

If my Bachman was a good as the loco in the video clip I would be happy

Hello Jazzer, glad you like the video.  You have received a lot of good advice.  From what you say my money would still be on poor quartering.  If the problem persists after lubrication and you can face the challenge you could inspect the quartering of the individual wheel sets.  I cannot remember how many spokes per wheel, but if we are talking 24 or 28 that does make it easier to spot if one is well adrift.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[jazzer]

Thanks, Ray. I did actually have a look at the  quartering after your first post but I don't think its that, although I am not ruling it out completely. I ran it up and down a bit earlier this evening and its actually not too bad going forward and the tight spot is far more evident in reverse. I think the next step is to give it a run on the rolling road for half an hour to get the oil spread around and if its still the same check then quartering more carefully and maybe have the motor out and see what I can find. Not sure what I will try first though.

Needs to get a bit warmer out there first though.

Thanks.

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Jazzer

 

Running in (wearing out) might be the answer.  I am guessing that you will already have put a spot of oil on the connecting rods.  Just running the engine and letting the nylon gears bed in might be the answer.  If your weather is like ours - fantastic sunshine during the day but super cold at night - and your layout and engine are sitting in these low temperatures - that might also be part of the problem.  Cold nylon can be very tough.  (We had Royal Mail deliver a parcel this morning (a coach - fancy) - I couldn't believe how cold it was inside its box.)

 

Let us know how you get on.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[jazzer]

Thanks for your further interest. Its been very cold down in Essex so I haven't really done much. although I have tried a bit more running in. I want to wait until it warms up a bit and see how they go in warmer weather before making any final decisions but my feeling at the moment is that the Bachman Class 3 tank is going to have to go back and let Bachman sort it out.  I am never going to get the layout finished if I have to keep spending time sorting locos out. As I feel at the moment I don't want to touch another Bachman until I have seen  evidence of decent quality control, at least to the standard of My 10-year old Pannier and Prairie. The additional running in might have improved it fractionally or in might just be that the extra oil has been well circulated but its not really up to standard and certainly not like the one in your video clip.

 

The Hornby Grange is just about passable but not as good as the M7's and the Standard Class 4, ......well.... it might just have redeemed itself.. Its Below what I would call an acceptable standard of  slow running and still has a fairly sever tight spot below about a scale 10mph but there has been enough of an improvement to make me feel it might be worthwhile persevering with when the temperature improves a little and the nylon becomes a little more flexible. If  I had any sense  I suppose I should build  my layout around the M7's , and the well tried Pannier and Prairie, but I suppose we all have this disease that demands more and more locos !

 

Thanks,

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Jazzer

 

In the past I would have been very supportive of Bachmann products but lately I have been quite diappointed.  There have been major issues with the likes of the Blue Pullman and then minor issues, such as a damaged boiler handrail on a ROD, crumpled corridor connectors on a Collett coach and wobbly wheels on a  tender - an O4.  As you say perhaps lack of proper QA - maybe all in the name of cutting costs.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[jazzer]

As a final post-script on this, the temperature went up a bit for a few hours a week or so back so I gave them a try and everything seemed slightly better, so I brought the offending locos in the house for a week ( in layout is in the garage) , then today gave them a short run and they do seem to be improved, so there seems to be something in the point about nylon becoming brittle in very cold weather. I doesn't explain why the others seem to be ok but never mind.  I think it will be a matter of fiddling around until they are ok rather than one specific thing being the cause, but I would never  have dreamed the cold weather would affect the nylon gears that much. Never mind. We have progress.

Thanks.

[Silver Sidelines]

Good Morning,

 

I don't think the temperature here is due to go up any time soon - and it has a long way to go!

 

I was thinking about your 'problem' last week after I took delivery of a 'new' Bachmann Hall.  It had all the appearances of being unused and whilst it would run smoothly it had a definite tight spot when starting and stopping.  I must have run it for about an hour and relubricated it - not a lot of improvement.  However when taking it apart it suddenly occurred to me that the little vacuum pump spindle on the crosshead was an extremely tight fit in the moulding on the body shell.  I took a little bit of the plastic away with a craft knife so that the spindle was a floppy fit in the body shell - instant success.  I think you mentioned in an early Post that one of your problem engines was a Hornby Grange.  The design of the Hornby vacuum spindle is slightly different to the Bachmann model but it might still be worth investigating.  Does the the problem disappear when the chassis runs on its own without the body?

 

Keep warm

 

Regards

 

Ray

[jazzer]

Thanks for your further comments.

The Grange is fine now . Not quite sure what caused the improvement .. General fiddling around with it several times over and the (slightly) warmer weather I think. Its only just turned warm enough to stay out there for more than about 5 min !

 

The Standard  Class4 is slightly better but I despair over the Bachman . I am going to have to leave the locos for a while and get on with the layout otherwise I'll get bored with it before its finished-story of my (modelling life !).