A GUV to Rhymney 1971 - any ideas how ?

[br2975]

I'm hoping someone can help me out with this, please.
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During 1971/72 1C33 the 00:55 Sun. Paddington - Swansea conveyed three GUV vans that were detached at Cardiff General; 2 for Treherbert and 1 for Rhymney.
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The pair of vans were attached to a BCK at Cardiff and this, hauled by a Canton Cl.37 that had worked L/E from Radyr formed 2C80 05:05 Cardiff General - Treherbert, returning ECS as the 5C09 08:00 Treherbert - Cardiff General. The Cl.37 then ran L/E back to Radyr.
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Now, the other GUV's journey from Cardiff General - Rhymney appears to be a bit of a mystery; but I suspect it was a tail load for the 2C65 05:10 Sun. Cardiff General - Rhymney 'passenger and parcels' (due Rhymney 07:12) which was a Canton Cl.116 Derby suburban set.
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This working ran non-stop from Cardiff General to Caerphilly, then made extended station stops at Llanbradach 6mins, Ystrad Mynach 7mins, Hengoed 7mins and Pengam (Mon) 9mins, presumably for the unloading of newspapers.
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Can anyone confirm if the GUV was conveyed as a tail load by the DMU ?
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Anyone know how the GUV was returned to Cardiff ?
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Whilst this was during my 'spotting era' alas 5:00am Sunday morning was beyond me.
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Brian R
 

[The Stationmaster]

The only information I can add Brian is in the negative as apposed to the confirmatory and that is that in 1973 (when I was at Radyr) there were no loco hauled parvan movements on the Rhymney Valley, any vans would definitely have been handled as tail traffic by then.  

 

Incidentally in the 1970-71 service the SunO Rhymney news van was conveyed on the 00.50 Paddington - Swansea.

 

And before anyone asks why there was onlya  Rhymney news van from Paddington on a Sunday morning the answer is fairly simple - Sunday newspapers, with the various additional sections, were heavier than weekday issues and thus harder/more work to tranship apart from requiring more vehicles in order to keep the tonnage down to van capacity.  The Rhymney van had no gangway access (in 1970/71) hence no on train rebundling and the extended stops were probably a consequence of that.

[chrisf]

I'm as sure as I can be that the news GUV would have been hauled up to Rhymney behind a dmu.  In the absence of loco hauled workings it follows that a dmu would have hauled it empty back to Cardiff.  What is not clear is when this happened.  The 1968-69 WTT that I have is not much help.  It specified that the 05.10 was a passenger and parcels formed with a dmu and with the extended stops that Brian mentions but does not indicate on which service the empties were despatched.  In an effort to unravel this I've looked at the Cardiff Valleys CWP for winter 1958-59 when the 5.10 am Cardiff General - Rhymney was still steam hauled and booked to convey "milk vans, newspaper and parcels vans" in addition to its five coaches!  The return working of the pasenger was the 8.30 am Rhymney - Barry, extended to Barry Island in the summer.  There is no mention of empty vans being conveyed on this or any other train out of Rhymney.  I believe that the return was arranged locally, as in "shift those ruddy vans so we have room to breathe" or whatever that is in Welsh. 

 

I also had a look at a "programme of working of coaches and vans in through trains" for summer 1961.  Whether things changed after that I know not but at that time the Rhymney van was formed in the 12.50 am Paddington - Swansea.  The vans for Neath, Briton Ferry, Cardiff and Blaina had booked return workings.  Those for Swansea, Treherbert, Rhymney and Newport did not.  This is quite a contrast to the practice of allocating vans to specific workings often found on the WR. 

 

Chris

[br2975]

Thank you both Mike & Chris.

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I supect the van would be DMU hauled - I even toyed with the idea that Canton 'may' have used one of its' single cars, as there would be few folk travelling 'up' the Rhymney Valley at that time on a Sunday morning, suspecting the service was laid on more for delivering the "News of the World" than workmen or late night revellers from the big city !

 

However at that time Canton's single cars were almost wholly utilised as booster power for the Swindon Cross Country units ( to which they could be attached for sometime) on the North & West Route.

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The BCK in the Treherbert working came up from Swansea and was switched at Cardiff. Not bad, 50% or so of the seating being first class. I wonder how this fared in winter, as the passengers would freeze if one of the Canton steam heated 37s wasn't available at Radyr ..... perhaps one of the Hymeks that sometime stabled at Radyr may have been pressed into service ?

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So much to ponder.......

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Brian R

[The Stationmaster]

Although a little later (1973) in my time at Radyr I seem to recall that steam heat EE Type 3s were something we didn't have much to do with and many of our Secondmen didn't know boilers in any case.  The only loco hauled 'passenger' (sic) job we had then was the Merthyr (03.45 ex Cardiff or thereabouts but it might have been later?) and all the locos in the Radyr diagrams worked through that diagram in turn - when they were working to diagram - so it must have gone without heat on a number of occasions (i.e. most of them).

[br2975]

.........................so it must have gone without heat on a number of occasions (i.e. most of them).

With so few passengers aboard, and those folk originating from north of Taffs Well being of such hardy stock I don't suppose the few travellers noticed the lack of heat !

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Brian R

[leekman]

Ive had a look at the 71/72 WTT and it shows all Sunday Rhymney workings with the "Single or Multiple Diesel Unit, or Parcels Diesel"  symbol used against all workings. There are no footnotes about tail traffic and it shows the extended stop times at each station - 2 hours Cardiff to Rhymney is bit of marathon for early morning travellers. There is nothing shown for down workings either to retunr the empty van. There is a photo in one of the British Railways Past and Present books (number 28) of a 3 car Derby unit at Hengoed Low Level in 1958 on a Rhymney bound working with a single van as tail traffic so there is definite proof that it happened. 

Does anyone have an Arrivals and Departures booklet for the period as that may show what happened to the van.