Do we expect to much

[simon hudson]

Last week I put a bid in on a new "Tornado Pullman" set and low and behold won it. Please bear in mind I haven't bought a model loco since Bachmann brought out their WD (how long ago?).

I sometimes look at new releases in catalogues, or if I'm in a shop, and of course read reviews on here rmweb.

After my purchase I did some delving on here, and started thinking have I done the right thing, no cab glazing naff buffers (Sorry delicate) should I have gone for a Bachmann A1 pro's and cons have I bought a pig in a poke?

Anyway I recieve the set and I can honestly say I'm pleased with it.I think I was expecting something akin to a 1970's-80's type of product.ie thick moulded handrails,thick orange band for linilng etc etc as regards motor I can't comment.

For what I paid, relative peanuts I can live with what I've got, I'm not a rivet counter by any means but I want something to look right and capture the essence/character of the real thing.I honestly thought I'll have to do a lot of work, which I enjoy anyway cutting carving about touching up paint plus new lining etc 

So I now look forward to the release of the P2, you never know I might make my second purchase of a ready to run loco in a long time.

I'm not a collector as such I remember buying a new Lima Deltic back in the early 80's stripped repainted detailed same with the first of the then new class 56's

I didn't want to hi-jack the thread on reliability as this is more about how models have moved on as re our expectations

[Gruffalo]

I'll second that Simon. I used to buy RTR in the 70's and got very disillusioned with the quality, hence I went down the K's, Wills, PC and Ratio kits route. I recently bid and won a GWR Mogul and a small Prairie on that well known auction site and I am pleasantly surprised by the improvements implemented over the last 30 years or so. Like you, I want something that is realistic without being an absolutely perfect scale model (I am a 00 modeller after all) and a lot of today's stock seems to be good enough to satisfy my demands. That I do not buy everythingI want is because I gain great satisfaction from the DIY aspect and I have enough kits and stock to work on and bring to a fine enough standard to run on Code 75 rail as it is.

 

My demands from a model shop are therefore in the sundry materials / accessories / paints areas rather than rolling stock. I am not going to keep somewhere like Model Zone alive with my purchases!

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...in the same way that those demanding lower prices are forcing manufacturers to try to match their expectations, then there are those of us out here who are demanding superb replicas of prototypes...otherwise we'll spend our hard earned elsewhere.

 

Dave  

[simon hudson]

I see where you are coming from Dave I don't want something cheap toy like either. I think things are a vast improvement on what we were fed in the late 60's and 70's.

As to being an exact scale superb replica I realistically think we would be paying a lot more money.

In the late 60's my pal got the then new Triang-Hornby Flying Scotsman for christmas I the new Trix Scotsman way back in those far off days Trix was regarded as the bees knees laughable now when you think about it.My Trix loco had thick black lining and an attempt at wire handrails it was also a yukky shade of green.His was the BR version with thick orange lining and realistic fire glow (great when you were a 10 year old!!) but mine had a five pole motor.

My point is I would hate to go back to those days(even with the tinted specs on) I model 00 my perogative (I wish I had the skills to go EM or P4 some of the stuff is superb).

But I was pleasantly surprised at my Railroad Tornado.

edit to add the Trix Loco developed the curse of the cracked chassis and then the front end disintegrated I still have the tender and the remains of the body in a box somewhere and my Trix A2 recieved a DJH chassis and etched components to the body

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...but the improvements that you describe are 'fruits' of the demands being made by others. 

 

Why would any manufacturer go to the expense of improving anything if he could just sit back and peddle 50/60s spec models?

 

Dave

[simon hudson]

I think a lot of it is down to market force Hornby had it all their own way up until the mid 70's, then along came Airfix (model raiways) Lima came in then Mailine all eating away into the cosy little world of Hornby I remember getting a Mailine J72 back in 1980 comparing that to my early 60's Jinty what a difference. I think a lot of the big Improvements came in with Bachmann.

As I mentioned earlier their WD was stunning at the time and it isn't a big green prestige engine.Realistically Hornby had to take notice and step up a gear.I certainly don't want to see us return to the old days and yes we as a modelling fraternity have to have our voices heard.I still think there are some lovely models out there  with room for improvement I suppose we will just have to see what happpens at the end of this reccesion

Maybe for another thread a lot of manufactures are pulling out of China  (Aifix an example).If and it's a big if are we (Britain) capable of supplying super quality models at a competitive price.ie somone to work, to turn out a quality premium item, and work for ( I use this with no disrespect to anyone) a third world wage

[Gruffalo]

Simon, the comment about a third world wage probably does not reflect the freight and distribution costs that are climbing quite rapidly from the far east.

Sadly the UK's energy costs are scheduled to rise by a rate 10% greater than Germany's over the next 7 years - according to our own government's figures (DECC) - which will continue to make the UK less competitive. Small scale producers do succeed - well certainly survive - Peco are a case in point and they manufacture in the UK.

Is it a case of the old adage of too many bosses? We do seem to be over-regulated generally and we have all seen the inverted pyramid of management, propped up by one small worker on the coalface.

[simon hudson]

Thats why I bracketed the comment before third world wage.I have always taken it that one of the reasons we went abroad was lower costs, wages etc, again probably for a different thread!.

The Far East workforce is becoming much more educated they are asking for higher wages, that's got to be built into cost,I agree transport costs are going to rise.

It would be nice in a perfect world if some or maybe even all of our manufacturing  came home.My reaction was could we do it and keep our prices competitive. Going full circle would our models be at the right price and standard that we would expect

[298]

Thats why I bracketed the comment before third world wage.I have always taken it that one of the reasons we went abroad was lower costs, wages etc, again probably for a different thread!.

The Far East workforce is becoming much more educated they are asking for higher wages, that's got to be built into cost,I agree transport costs are going to rise.

It would be nice in a perfect world if some or maybe even all of our manufacturing  came home.My reaction was could we do it and keep our prices competitive. Going full circle would our models be at the right price and standard that we would expect

 

One thing that bothers me with any potential "move" is the justification that the UK market is in a unique position by demanding cheap models- harking back to the bad old Lima days when all new releases were rare and there was little interest in getting something that ran well, but it was all OK because you would go out and buy three at a time in a variety of quickly released but poorly applied liveries. Every other market around the world has seen a steady increase in quality (roughly in line with inflation).

 

The UK should get the models it deserves, regardless of where they are made. But this should mean a good price for a good product, without backwards steps in detail or quality control.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...are we (Britain) capable of supplying super quality models at a competitive price.ie someone to work, to turn out a quality premium item, and work for ( I use this with no disrespect to anyone) a third world wage

There are plenty more locations in the world which will be looking at the simpler end of product manufacturing as opportunities on the path to economic development, to make the 'return to the UK' so many desire unlikely in our lifetimes. Unless of course various tech emerges that 'short circuits' the present manufacturing system, much as wireless tech means that much of the world will never get wired/cabled in the way that was necessary for C20th comms engineering.

 

I have joked before about bacterially engineered track, but seemingly bizarre technologies may well emerge as real game changers. We might  be buying Pecology, Biopol, Hornbug, Helgene and Bachgrown before you know it...

[skipepsi]

There are plenty more locations in the world which will be looking at the simpler end of product manufacturing as opportunities on the path to economic development, to make the 'return to the UK' so many desire unlikely in our lifetimes. Unless of course various tech emerges that 'short circuits' the present manufacturing system, much as wireless tech means that much of the world will never get wired/cabled in the way that was necessary for C20th comms engineering.

 

I have joked before about bacterially engineered track, but seemingly bizarre technologies may well emerge as real game changers. We might  be buying Pecology, Biopol, Hornbug, Helgene and Bachgrown before you know it...

There maybe more locations available with low wages but will companies want to go through the same learning curve again knowing wage rises will bring financial advantages fow fewer and fewer years each time.

[The Stationmaster]

There are plenty more locations in the world which will be looking at the simpler end of product manufacturing as opportunities on the path to economic development, to make the 'return to the UK' so many desire unlikely in our lifetimes. Unless of course various tech emerges that 'short circuits' the present manufacturing system, much as wireless tech means that much of the world will never get wired/cabled in the way that was necessary for C20th comms engineering.

 

I have joked before about bacterially engineered track, but seemingly bizarre technologies may well emerge as real game changers. We might  be buying Pecology, Biopol, Hornbug, Helgene and Bachgrown before you know it...

They may well - at some future date - be looking 'at the simpler end of manufacturing' but manufacturing the parts for and assembling a 4mm scale loco is hardly 'simpler' when they could be putting together a whole range of consumer electronivcs stuff which is in far greater demand with longer production runs and perhaps better profit ratios.  I'm not saying other nations wouldn't be up to model railway manufacturing to quite demanding standards as some such as India could probably quickly develop the assembly skills but there will be a learning curve and investment. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There maybe more locations available with low wages but will companies want to go through the same learning curve again knowing wage rises will bring financial advantages for fewer and fewer years each time.

The training required is the same everywhere. A late teens/early twenties young woman suitable for small assembly work requires just the same training in the UK as anywhere else in the world. If it is cheaper this week to train and employ the assembly operatives up to production capable in Mogadishou rather than Montrose, then Mogadishou gets it. Margins are tight, tight, tight; there's no sentiment or charity in these decisions. 

 

The moment one of the vendors to the UK market sees that lowest net cost of doing the business will be obtained by a relocation back to the UK, they will do it. End of the story? No, if it subsequently becomes apparent that the cost advantage has moved elsewhere, it will relocate again. This is the future, learn to live with it...

[skipepsi]

The training required is the same everywhere. A late teens/early twenties young woman suitable for small assembly work requires just the same training in the UK as anywhere else in the world. If it is cheaper this week to train and employ the assembly operatives up to production capable in Mogadishou rather than Montrose, then Mogadishou gets it. Margins are tight, tight, tight; there's no sentiment or charity in these decisions. 

 

The moment one of the vendors to the UK market sees that lowest net cost of doing the business will be obtained by a relocation back to the UK, they will do it. End of the story? No, if it subsequently becomes apparent that the cost advantage has moved elsewhere, it will relocate again. This is the future, learn to live with it...

It is only the future where there is a lack of political will Germany I would suggest has the best life style for workers yet still has basic industriy like steel making/ car manufacturing and ship building and other heavy industry. I would not compare us with France where most industry seems to have a level of state support that would be called nationalisation in Britain.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The state support in Germany is the Germans, who have a work ethic you can break rocks with, and are generally loyal to the home product. I have been able to compare British and German workforces directly in the same activity. British every time for creativity in all its forms. Germans for dogged persistence at making the goods to the highest possible standard, delivered on time, for the agreed price. When it comes to manufacturing the latter is a distinct advantage.