Londontram Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 Just above the SB marked on the map is the black dot which is the exact spot of the 7 lever ground frame mounted on a small raised platform on the end of the main plattform ramp seen in this photo on this link (sorry dont know how to post photo's) http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?start=288&sa=X&rlz=1C1KMZB_enGB552GB552&es_sm=93&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&tbnid=Zdwcc9p8Hne8pM:&imgrefurl=http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/view_book.php%3Fref%3DL9563&docid=TqP3ur_vZZtibM&imgurl=http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/BDLbooksample_pics/L9563_samp2.jpg&w=600&h=388&ei=3_NJUu6xJaqe7Abck4HIBA&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:99,s:200,i:301&iact=rc&page=21&tbnh=180&tbnw=275&ndsp=16&tx=181&ty=47 But I suspect that the shed in his view just beyond the train is just a shed connected to the pier line, maybe something to do with a simple goods shed as seen in this next view - the ground frame being hidden by the coaches of tthe train in a plan sent by Doc jacobs this building is shown as being much longer than on the OS map so I think the jurys still out on this one http://www.google.co...12&tx=116&ty=59 PS I think the referance to the signal box could have been one at Killin the only other one being at Killin junction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 I still cant work out dispite the ground frame how the Tay section could have been any thing more the a one engine line as the frame was unlocked by the staff collected from Killin and as such returned by the train returning. Any engine left at loch Tay was in all respect locked onto what ever part of the line either pier siding or station loop so I cant see why it was ever signaled at all, but then again what I know about signaling you could put on the back of a fag packet so if any one can explain in laymans terms please do, to hold an engine to shunt the yard while the trip engine returned to Killin would make for a more interesting display at shows, here is a link to the signaling web site which shows the lay out wih a breif discription of its history. http://www.oban-line.info/lt2/lt2.html There are two pages and clicking on the under lined Loch Tay will take you to the other page Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 It's worth getting a hold of a copy of "Forty Years of Caledonian Locomotives 1882 - 1922" by H.J. Campbell Cornwell if you want a good reference for Caledonian locomotives. It's now out of print, but usually readily available on second hand web sites. I've just checked and Amazon and Abebooks have copies starting at around £7.00. Jim. Thanks Jim for the advice my copie arrived via Amazon today, great book its going to be very usefull Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Just above the SB marked on the map is the black dot which is the exact spot of the 7 lever ground frame ... I hadn't noticed that dot! I am beginning to think you're right and there never was more than a ground frame. Major Marindin's 1886 inspection report for the line refers to the two signal cabins at Killin Junction (East and West) but only to ground frames at Acharn Siding, Killin and Loch Tay, and he is not likely to have used the terms loosely. The Caledonian sectional appendix refers to "signal frames": Elsewhere in the sectional appendix the modes of working of single lines are listed with careful distinction between No 1 and No 3 Tablet, Train Staff, and Train Staff and Ticket (the latter two with or without block telegraph). Staff and Ticket allowed several trains to follow each other in the same direction: the driver of each got a paper ticket, plus sight of the train staff, as authority to occupy the single line, with the last train in that direction carrying the staff itself. However the Killin branch was plain Train Staff - painted red - plus block telegraph, so no possibility of multiple trains on the branch except in case of failure, when the fireman had to walk with the staff to the rescuing loco and conduct it to the failed train, which would be protected by detonators and a red flag or lamp. The block telegraph would have allowed bell signals describing the train plus text by "message telegraph". Loch Tay's call letter was "L", Killin "K", and the Junction East and West boxes were "KS" and "FO" respectively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Well I'm in hogs heaven as DocJacob copied me a load of stuff on Loch Tay and its just arrived - cheers mate its great most of it I've not seen before, the plans of the engine shed and station as well as the views of the front of the station and shed buildings will be a great help (never seen the front of the building before) Thats also the clearest view of the ground frame I've ever seen all usefull stuff. I noticed in the text the writer says the Loch Tay had at one time its own signal box so far I've found no evidence that this ever existed though in reading up on the Calidonian I have seen other ground frames discribed as signal boxes some just having a shed built around the frame. I dont think there was ever one here unless anyone knows otherwise. Any way thanks again I'm just off to have another read. Regards Steve Any chance of sharing the photo of the ground frame? - I am restoring what we belive to be the last surviving Caledonian Railway knee frame at the Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society in Leven, and have been searching without success for a photo/drawing of this equipment. Lochty no more Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 Hi Lochty My scanner is broken but I'll get my brother in law to scan it for me and send it to you. In the mean time here is a better link to the photo I posted earler http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?start=288&sa=X&rlz=1C1KMZB_enGB552GB552&es_sm=93&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&tbnid=Zdwcc9p8Hne8pM:&imgrefurl=http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/view_book.php%3Fref%3DL9563&docid=TqP3ur_vZZtibM&imgurl=http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/BDLbooksample_pics/L9563_samp2.jpg&w=600&h=388&ei=3_NJUu6xJaqe7Abck4HIBA&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:99,s:200,i:301&iact=rc&page=21&tbnh=180&tbnw=275&ndsp=16&tx=181&ty=47 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 Thinking again if I did it it would be a scan of a scan. If Docjacob is reading this maybe he could scan the original its on page three of the Railay Bylines article, its a fontal view at an angle but from a distance so shows its posiion but no more detail than in the oher photo in the link above, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 See what I can do for you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 These may be of some use to you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Cheers Doc photo No. four is a new one to me the one taken in 1965, its interesting to see how much has changed from the photo above this one taken in about 1886 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Thanks DOCJACOB for posting these photo`s, regretably the elevated ground frame is not a Caledonian railway frame - the lettering on the endplate confirms this the 4 lever cally frame I`m working on - even the Caledonian Railway Society cant find a photograph or drawing of it, Just have to keep on looking. Once again thanks for taking the trouble to scan the article and post it as I know how busy you are restoring LNER Grain vans amongst other things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Sorry it didn't help but it dose raise a question as to why its not a Caley type which I think we could answer straight away. The Killin branch was right up to the grouping a private owned and built venture by the Marquis of Breadalbane and his fellow share holders and was only linked to the Callander and Oban railway and run by agreement with the Caledonian and when built may/would have sourced its equipment from what ever company offered the best/cheapest price. In one of the photo's (No. 3 in that batch) that Doc down loaded set in about 1890 show's the signals as solid possable wooden posts not the usual Caley lattice (though in a later period photo they are changed to the lattice type) so as I said they most likely "shopped around" to get the best deal when buying the equipment for the line and got an "off the peg" ground frame and signals, it's well documented that the whole line was built down to a price (Ref. page 9 - The Killin Branch Railway by Colin Hogarth). So might explane why it's not a Caledonian type. What are the plans for the ground frame when it's done? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Sorry it didn't help but it dose raise a question as to why its not a Caley type which I think we could answer straight away. The Killin branch was right up to the grouping a private owned and built venture by the Marquis of Breadalbane and his fellow share holders and was only linked to the Callander and Oban railway and run by agreement with the Caledonian and when built may/would have sourced its equipment from what ever company offered the best/cheapest price. In one of the photo's (No. 3 in that batch) that Doc down loaded set in about 1890 show's the signals as solid possable wooden posts not the usual Caley lattice (though in a later period photo they are changed to the lattice type) so as I said they most likely "shopped around" to get the best deal when buying the equipment for the line and got an "off the peg" ground frame and signals, it's well documented that the whole line was built down to a price (Ref. page 9 - The Killin Branch Railway by Colin Hogarth). So might explane why it's not a Caledonian type. What are the plans for the ground frame when it's done? Londontram, put it back to work on the Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society, We have three ground frames a "Stevens & son" c1890 from the Wemyss Private Railway (5 lever frame with only 3 levers fitted ), the four lever Caledonian frame from Polmont, and a 7 lever BR frame. The ground frames will be used as a stepping stone to controll signals & points until we have the funding in place to build a full size NBR signal cabin - we have a "Stevens & son" 18 lever Glagow old pattern frame ( from "Thornton South" ) ready to install. For further details check out "Signal A & E" on the Preservation form. Your explanation is probably correct, I just saw "Caledonian Railway" and "Knee frame" in the same sentance and got over excited as usual. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 The first picture in post 34 is in fact at Balquidder (Killin Jn had no verandah). Somebody published it with the wrong location some time ago, and the error has been much repeated since. Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Thanks Allan well spotted. I dont know how many times I've looked at photo's and plans of Killin junction in the last few weeks but I never noticed....... Doh! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 One thing which has only recently struck me (and I've been looking at most of these pictures for years!) is that the signals (there appear to be three at Loch Tay) only control the exits from the pier sidings, and from each end of the loop. There are no signals applying to the "main line". The same situation applies at Killin, where the one signal controls the exit from the goods yard. I'm no signalling expert, but this does seem to suggest that trains could be "locked in" to the various sidings. Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Yes I thought that to, with the line from Killin being token controled what over reasion could there be for the signals (note in the plans tthere are several catch points too) which dose give scope for some operation veriation may be they intended to leave an engine to shunt the peir but traffic conditions never developed to warrent this. As I said if this is going to work as a display at shows then it needs something more han a one coach shuttel every half hour this could be it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 In the British Transport Films Collection there is a film about British Road Services. But it features lorries running from Killin station to a dam construction site, and there are a few decent views of the station from about 4m 07s. It's on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCQVEINgfeo . If that doesn't work, google British Transport Films Collection Vol 5 Off the Beaten Track They take the high road chunk 1. It's very evocative of an era when men were men! Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 cheers that was brilliant you can get so much informaion from a film like that like the station colours and even a feel for the country side in general. Thanks again. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishswissernie Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 A couple of Loch Tay and several of Killin & Killin Junction in my Flickr set on the Callender & Oban. Link below will take you to one of the Loch Tay views and the rest of the set. http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/6870685038/in/set-72157626647363095 Ernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flubrush Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 There are a couple of interesting pictures on a thread on the Caledonian Railway Association forum http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=291 I think the forum is read only for non-members. Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Cheers Ernie thats a great set of photo's thanks, the second Loch Tay photo gives a great view of the front of the station which is not often seen. Note the very thick post to the left of the gate post this was one of the RSJ type legs (left hand rear) that supported the ground frame it most likely survived because it was concreted in with the gate post and was more trouble than it was worth to remove it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Well Jim what can I say that's one of the best early views of the pier that I've ever seen and the best shot of the coal chutes as well. Also this is the first close up photo of the Carlotta I've see as well - these are going to be very usefull to me Jim. A few of us have wondered what the early working arangment was and this answers some of these questions, trouble is it raises a few more too! Thanks again. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 Reading all the thoughts and comments on this forum and eve dropping on the Caledonian assocation forum I think that when the branch was first built they thought there would be much more traffic than ever developed and they signaled Lock Tay in anticipation for this. As the traffic never developed there was never a need to use the signals and point locks and they most likely became redundant before the line even oppened but as they were there had tp be used......Or did it? as I have a 1931 photo showing the square wooden posts seen in the 1880s photo replaced by Caledonian style lattice post signals so the question is why go to this expence to install and maintain these if the signaling was not used and if for single engine movements around the station why not as sugested on the Crassoc forum just have ground signals as noted earlier the whole killin branch was built down to a price so why all this for nothing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Don't forget guys keep me in mind if you come across anything Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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