LBSC saloons and CCT's)

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

I will be building from Peter Binsted's etch a model of the Billington (Clerestory) Family Saloon, diagram 94/40, to run with this there will also be a short LBSC CCT, from 9to5 models.

 

I have asked the Brighton circle  if they know the location of the lettering on the Family Saloon, with no reply

.

There is a photo in P J Newbury's book; that does  does not show any; numbers yes, where I would think the lettering should be (between the two sets of numbers) is either blank or over exposed.

 

The CCT I have no idea about it only has a single door and that is possibly a location but its a bit tight; there are no waist panels (except of the door): and the only photo I have is a single (departmental from the look of it) so no help to me.

 

Does any member have any idea's please?

 

Yours Peter.

[mikeandnel]

Hello Peter

I think that the answer to your query concerning the location of the vehicle number is that it would have been in the small

waist panel directly below the window in the door to the family compartment itself.

Have you read P.J. Newbury's book entitled 'Carriage Stock of the LBSCR?

There is a history, with numbers, on page 46

 

Michael dJS

[PeterR]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for the reply, that is where I would have put the lettering which also a guess would be just LBSCR;  the central door of the short CCT though  would have in smaller letters just LBSC (no room for the last R) I think?

 

I have Newbury's book which has been helpful, it could have done with more photos though, I will paint the saloon etc in a dark brown color (+ white upper panels for the saloon).

 

Yours Peter.

[suerose]

Hi Peter,

Your request for information on the family saloon was passed to the Brighton Circle Email Group, so I checked my kit and According to the instruction I have in my SLW kit the Clerestory saloon D94/40:

Nos 1/2/10/11 built in 1903

Nos 1/2 were renumbered 579/580

No 579 reclassified third No 303 in 1920

No 10 re-classified third No 301 in 1920

Nos 11/580 were withdrawn in 1925

3rd No 301/3 withdrawn in 1925

The instruction also have comprehensive livery details, but doesn't give where the lettering was on the carriage.

Hope this helps a bit

 

Regards

Sue Rose

Brighton Circle Member

 

[PeterR]

Hi Sue,

 

Thanks for the reply.  It seems that the information, re position of lettering,  is lost or unavailable alas.

 

Yours Peter.

[Nick Holliday]

Peter

 

Don't write things off just yet.  The Brighton Circle generally communicates to its members via a quarterly magazine, and our Chairman does not use email, so any enquiry via "offical" routes may take several months to appear in print, and then take another six to get all the answers back!  The email group of which Sue and I are members is rather quicker to react, but since none of the group knew anything about your enquiry until you started this thread, it would be interesting to know who you contacted and when. 

 

It's only two days since I posted your query to the group, and we have already had a number of knowledgeable replies, and one or two of our coaching experts have not commented yet, (I am sure you are aware of the problems of have jobs, family, illness and holidays) so if you can wait a bit, someone will summarise the information that has been contributed and post it on here.

 

A preliminary answer appears that there was no lettering on the waist panel, but I am sure there is more to say on both vehicles.

[PeterR]

Hi Nick,

 

Thank you for the very helpful reply - both you and Sue have been very good.

 

I sent a note to the Brighton Circle via the web address, using the address    'circle@lbscr.org'    which I believe goes to  Dave Searle, as this is the only name on the website, on the 6 Sept.

 

Thanks again for your efforts and I look forward to the information.

 

Yours Peter.

[Nick Holliday]

A little bit of back-story regarding the LBSC passenger livery.  Before the two-tone livery adopted in 1903, coaches were in mahogany, either varnished or painted depending upon the timber used.  The only lettering was the class designation, carried on the waist panel of the relevant door, and included the guard.  At the centre of the coach, within the lower panel, there was the company garter, and inside the garter was the carriage number.  No other lettering was provided.  At some time the number was moved from the garter and applied to the waist panel, but still no LBSCR except on the garter.

The clerestory saloon coaches in question were introduced in 1903, and were the first to be built carrying the new two tone umber and white livery.  On these coaches (and only one other, I believe) the full company crest was applied at the centre of the lower panel, as per the Newbury photo, but with only the numbers on the waist panel, so there has been no loss of detail in the photo.  There is "To be returned to Brighton" written on the left end of the solebar.

Sadly, clear photos of these coaches are rare, there is one of them in Brighton works, fully painted but without any lettering or numbering, so not much use.  Another shows it when in service use at Bognor, with the number in the long waist panel and the panel before the luggage doors, with LBSC in the panels each side of the centre door.  The date the changes were made is unknown, perhaps the original livery lasted until 1910 or thereabouts, at which juncture it would have lost its crest and received the lettering, as well as perhaps being in all-over umber, but stil no "Saloon" lettering.

The Stroudley CCT is an even rarer beast regarding photos, with only distant shots at difficult angles. Jonathan Abson, the carriage guru of the Brighton Circle produced a drawing for the slightly later double-door version which has the lettering as shown on the attached extract.  Without direct photographic evidence it is probably based upon the best information avialable from similar vehicles.

BC 8 CCT.pdf Sorry, the picture needs to be rotated.

Hope that helps

[PeterR]

Hi Nick,

 

Thank you for the PDF, that is another design and very interesting, being 6" shorter than the drawing in the Newbury book, and with double doors. Can I ask please if there is possibly an end view of it, or failing that a radii for the roof, was it a high roof like diagram 82/253?  Newbury's drawing of Dia. 82/253 shows a single door as does my photo, would that be one of the very variable Dia 83/254 - 261 set perhaps?

 

Re the CCT I think that it could be Dia 83/254 though that is a 20 footer, and there is a number 72 listed for that diagram, in Newbury's book with a width of 8 foot.

 

What length would you suggest for the springs of CCT's? some choices are as follows -  5.5 feet which the L&Y used, or 6 foot as the 20 foot MR CCT used, and finally the NER CCTs used 5 foot long springs.

 

 

Thank you for your efforts and the time taken - it is most appreciated.

 

Yours Peter.

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

Just a short note re my request to the Brighton Circle - the contact Dave Searle received my message just as he went away on holiday, and has been catching up ever since! That I can understand as I have the same trouble when  I am away.

 

Dave knows that I am being assisted here and is happy with that, and I thus retract my 'chunter'; I have replied to Dave.

 

Yours Peter.

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

The owner of Dragon Models Wales (http://www.dragonmodelswales.co.uk) has returned from his holiday (the first for 10 years) and gas sent me a set of the LBSC crests (2nd series) which are rub down; they coat incl. post £7.50.

 

I will take the 'chicken way out' and rub them down onto clear decal sheet and treat them from then on as waterslide ones!

 

Smokey Loco (  peter.binstead1@btinternet.com  ) has commissioned 4 sets of the etches, and is not yet certain if the castings can be made, but I think that can be possibly dealt with, 

 

What length for the springs would be correct please?

 

Yours Peter

[Nick Holliday]

Which vehicles is Smokey Loco etching, as that might affect the size of springs required?  Are they some from his initial output, or has he created some new ones?

[PeterR]

Hi Nick,

 

As far as I know Peter is re-staring with the original etchings; he has had a difficult time but is hoping to get things moving again. I will be buying a set for the saloon.

 

Branchline Models (they have a blog, but not a website and are now with new owners. The blog is at    http://branchlines.blogspot.co.uk

  

 

 

They will sell a set of the springs etc for about £17 (some parts are in brass) or so from their range of Billington Coaches.

 

The outer spring looks to be about 7 foot long with the centre spring being approx. 8 foot both measurements from the photo in Newbury's book,

 

That also shows (from the Billington coach drawing) in the same book to be about correct.

 

Any thoughts re J. Abson's CCT drawing ends please? High roof like the 5 to 9 kit or a lower style?

 

Yours Peter.

[Nick Holliday]

Alternative parts can be bought from 5&9 Models, with a wide range of white-metal castings, rather cheaper than Branchlines.  Chris Cox of the former parish does both Stroudley and Billinton varieties.  Obviously the clerestory saloon is a Billinton design, but Smokey Loco did two other Billinton saloons and one Stroudley design - the type with the crenelated roof edging strip, so it might help to know which one you were going for.  The length of the springs is as you worked out, and the 5&9 castings are available for both.

 

I don't understand your last point - I hadn't noticed any substantial difference between the drawing and the model.  As far as I am aware the two designs had the same end profile.

 

I am assured by the proprietor of Branchlines that a proper website is in hand - I have never been able to understand why he would want to publicise a blogspot that hasn't seen any action for over six years, yet it still appears in his adverts.

[PeterR]

Hi Nick

 

Thanks for the reply that is very helpful, with all the information I can sort some models out.

 

You mention the last point - re the shape of the roof, I was checking that it did not have a low arc (like Stroudley Coaches), or the higher roof as the 5to9 kit - as J Abson's drawing (for which many thanks) shows just a side view that question is now answered.

 

Further looking on the web has found a website    http://www.ragstonemodels.co.uk/index.php?f=data_products&a=1    for Ragstone Models (scroll down past the GER models etc) who sell 7mm scale kits which include a model of the J Abson's drawing style and other LBSC vehicles.

 

 

Yours Peter.

[Nick Holliday]

Hi Nick

 

Thanks for the reply that is very helpful, with all the information I can sort some models out.

 

You mention the last point - re the shape of the roof, I was checking that it did not have a low arc (like Stroudley Coaches), or the higher roof as the 5to9 kit - as J Abson's drawing (for which many thanks) shows just a side view that question is now answered.

 

Further looking on the web has found a website    http://www.ragstonemodels.co.uk/index.php?f=data_products&a=1    for Ragstone Models (scroll down past the GER models etc) who sell 7mm scale kits which include a model of the J Abson's drawing style and other LBSC vehicles.

 

 

Yours Peter.

I thought I had sent you a full copy of the J ABson drawing by PM, but obviously the system failed, hence the confusion regarding the roof profile.  Glad things are sorted.