Bachmann class 25 sound

[pipparooba]

Hello, I am looking for some advice. I'm new to the whole model railway thing and I have only been into the hobby since January this year. Straight away I went the way of DCC and after a few loco purchases I took the plunge towards sound locos. A little on the expensive side... but you only have a mid-life crisis a few times in your life!!  After buying a class 31 sound and a 37 sound I thought I would get a class 25 with a v4 sound decoder.

Here is where I have the problem. The DCC decoder stopped working a few weeks ago and even though I could read the CV's, the decoder would not do anything. I contacted Bachmann to tell them the decoder would not work and that it was only a few months old. Bachmann said that I needed an invoice or receipt for it. After countless hours looking, the receipt was found and the train was sent off to them early this week.

I received a reply stating that the paper tag is missing and therefore the warranty is void so they will not repair it, yet the train in question has never been taken apart, let alone had the decoder taken out.

These purchases have not come cheap and I stand to lose a good deal of money. Do I have some kind of consumer right regarding this issue?

Many thanks    

[HLT 0109]

Did you fit the decoder yourself or did you buy the locomotive with it already fitted?  If the latter, did you buy the loco new or second-hand?  If you bought new from a trader (as you seem to imply) then you should have recourse against that trader under the various Sales  of Goods Acts and your receipt as proof of purchase should be sufficient.  Unless yoou bought direct from Bachmann you have no contract with them which is why they need to be convinced that your claim is covered under warranty.  Your best course of action is to take the matter up with the trader from whom you bough it - they are normally very helpful.

 

Good luck,

Harold.

[pheaton]

Is your loco 25276?

 

if its not.....only 25276 is fitted with a v4 decoder the other 25s issued by Bachmann are fitted with V3.5

 

which means that if its not 25276 its not a Bachmann issued sound decoder, as you mention its a V4. then its a sound decoder thats been installed by the previous owner!

 

either way you will need to take this up with the retailer.

 

failing that ESU will repair or replace the decoder for about 35 euros.

[pipparooba]

hi there i bought it from a trader new but did contact Bachmann myself as i thought it would be easier because the shop is 20 miles away and thought it would be easier. but what saying is the paper warranty tape has been removed but i no cant remember removing it or a reason to remove it. and the decoder as not been taken out. ive only had it 9 months and it was a v4 chip in it. it was a 

32-330DS Bachmann CLASS 25/1 DIESEL D5183 BR GREEN DCC SOUND FITTED 

i wont be buying another sound loco of them is this is how you get treated ill be sticking to fitting them myself or even looking at moving sound chips ive heard bad things about the V4 goin pop  i may contact esu tho thx for the head up 

[pheaton]

hi there i bought it from a trader new but did contact Bachmann myself as i thought it would be easier because the shop is 20 miles away and thought it would be easier. but what saying is the paper warranty tape has been removed but i no cant remember removing it or a reason to remove it. and the decoder as not been taken out. ive only had it 9 months and it was a v4 chip in it. it was a 

32-330DS Bachmann CLASS 25/1 DIESEL D5183 BR GREEN DCC SOUND FITTED 

i wont be buying another sound loco of them is this is how you get treated ill be sticking to fitting them myself or even looking at moving sound chips ive heard bad things about the V4 goin pop  i may contact esu tho thx for the head u

 

Hi,

My mistake I forgot about the green version of it....yes that's most likely a factory fitted V4...the tape they are talking about is a little white seal, the problem is its got a nasty habbit of actually falling off as its not the most secure of the things they have put on, its designed to break apart if the decoder is removed or tampered with.

 

I would telephone them and point out that since the model is quite literally 9 months old you are unlikely to have replaced or tampered with the decoder, you've provided proof of purchase and also....remind them that if the CVs can still be read, they can actually determine if the decoder has been reblown, and with which suppliers project, If it hasn't been reblown that should go in your favour.

 

Ive got 46 sound fitted locomotives, I haven't had a V4 go yet but I have had a v3 fail on me....these things happen unfortunately and I guess the overall outlay for the sound decoder makes it a little hard to swallow...

 

Good luck

[SRman]

So how do Bachmann square it with their warranty if Southwest Digital reblow the 'faulty' ones that went into 25 276 and the like? That's the ones where the brake release occurs after the locomotive starts moving, due to the sound files having been imperfectly converted from the LokSound 3.5 format.

I am considering taking advantage of that offer but it means removing/breaking the paper seal - it is not practical to send the whole locomotive over to the UK from here in Australia.

[BR(S)]

If the paperwork you have indicates this model was purchased as new and the only issue is a missing label due to nothing you have done, I would persevere with Bachmann if they have your loco.  The label could quite easily have been missed off in the factory.  Alternatively, you have the option of returning the loco to the shop you purchased it from under the conditions of the warranty and as someone new to the hobby, it is advised that this is always your first port of call. 

 

A few years ago, Bachmann altered their warranty policy and will now charge to repair items that have been bought secondhand or that don't have a receipt, so going back to the shop of purchase would always be sensible if these apply (I realise they don't apply to you in this instance).  I think this was reasonable as who knows what people have done to the locos?!  I bought a secondhand DCC sound Class 20 shortly after this change which then, like your Class 25, just stopped working for no clear reason.  I couldn't return it to the trader as it was just bought off a stand at a toy fair.  It was repaired by Bachmann for their stated price and never had any other problems.   

 

Don't let this put you off sound equipped locos (even Bachmann ones!) as they do add a whole new dimension to the hobby.  I would also recommend looking at buying other manufacturer's sound decoders (e.g. South West Digital, Legomanbiffo via DC Kits, Howes, Coastal DCC, YouChoos, Zimo etc.) and fitting them to DCC ready locos with a bass reflex speaker.  Have a look at some videos on YouTube to see whose sounds you prefer; I have some on my channel, username Bromley North, or have a look through my layout thread linked to in my signature.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

A few years ago, Bachmann altered their warranty policy

 

One of the changes was the warranty paperwork supplied with the model needs to have a dealer stamp on it that was I believe supplied by Bachmann to the dealer.

 

The OP has a greater claim against the supplier than Bachmann although I can see that if the loco is in original format ie with a standard V4 Loksound mounted in a loco that would have had that from the factory, then the absence of a paper seal or any trace of it would not really constitute a reason to deny a warranty claim for a faulty decoder if both a receipt and the original loco were supplied.

 

There are a lot of reasons why a decoder fails and a dramatic increase in the reasons for a sound decoder to fail. Bachmann changed their warranty procedures because the cost benefit analysis declined. In other words they were getting stuffed so had to prune. Sound decoders are a nightmare since you can have no idea what has failed without very sophisticated equipment and a guru to operate it. I sincerely believe that ESU merely supply a new decoder rather than analyse the dud one.

[pipparooba]

Thx guys for the info I spoke to a Bachmann guy over the weekend at the manchester show. I'm sure it was him who was dealing with it or he know of my nice emails I've sent he also knows that I had a friend service the said train because of a dry join. He also knows that on the service guide it is recommended that a said DDC chip is removed and a blank one replaced to run the new oil and grease in DC as to do this the paper tape needs to be taken off to do so. I have over 10 sound loco and I only have one class 25 why would I want to take the chip out. If I wanted to reprogramme the sound that I don't you can do it on the rails with a programmer. I don't see the problem. I had a V4 almost set on fire a fortnight ago at my club full clag the works I emailed Charlie from DC kits and a replacement one was sent straight away. Ill see what the consumer rights have to say first. And them contact Bachmann again. Now unless a much larger speaker is used I can't see how they blow.

[Lowlander]

Hi

 

Just as a matter of interest esu have changed their pricing policy on damaged chips. I sent a v3.5 back to esu at the beginning of the year and they stated "that as the chip was out of warranty it would cost 87 euros to repair it". I declined their offer and told them to keep the chip. They also don't take credit card for payment, so it would have to be a bank transfer, which is extortionate.

 

As your chip is a V4 it should still be in warranty. I would be taking it back to the retailer who sold it to you. (It maybe 20 away miles, but it's still cheaper than sending it to esu) As it is a new chip, the retailer will have to send back the whole model to Bachmann. I would strongly insist on a new one and try it out in the shop, just in case. If you don't get any joy from the retailer, I would then contact trading standards to see where you stand.

 

Good Luck 

 

Stephen

[pipparooba]

Thx Stephen for the reply I have already contacted consumer direct who are part of citizens advice which in turn is the first port of call I know I have a good case with the trader but I go there alot and down want to have that burden with them every time I go I'm just waiting for a email of Bachmann with a copy of the warranty agreement then I can forward it to them and see want they say. I mean when push comes to shove its not like its a Bachmann fault it's a ESU. As a consumer I have rights. I think the only thing that I've done wrong is follow the service guild lines for a DDC decorder and not the DDC sound one. Which recommendes after a service remove chip and run on DC to brake back in. Cheers Ian

[pheaton]

Hi

 

Just as a matter of interest esu have changed their pricing policy on damaged chips. I sent a v3.5 back to esu at the beginning of the year and they stated "that as the chip was out of warranty it would cost 87 euros to repair it". I declined their offer and told them to keep the chip. They also don't take credit card for payment, so it would have to be a bank transfer, which is extortionate.

 

As your chip is a V4 it should still be in warranty. I would be taking it back to the retailer who sold it to you. (It maybe 20 away miles, but it's still cheaper than sending it to esu) As it is a new chip, the retailer will have to send back the whole model to Bachmann. I would strongly insist on a new one and try it out in the shop, just in case. If you don't get any joy from the retailer, I would then contact trading standards to see where you stand.

 

Good Luck 

 

Stephen

whoever said that was telling you porkies....its quite clearly 45 euros on there website, i also have 2 3.5s repaired a month ago at 45 euros each....

 

http://www.esu.eu/en/support/warranty-repair/reparaturen/servicepauschalen/austauschpauschalen/

[pipparooba]

Thx for the heads up on the v3.5 I got told that also from SWD about 6 months ago I forgot to clip a speaker in and a wire touch the chip now it over heats when the sound I put on I was looking at trying to source the part but I might just sent it off. Cheers phaeton.

After just reading the link it might be the exchange fee not the service fee he was on about

[Lowlander]

whoever said that was telling you porkies....its quite clearly 45 euros on there website, i also have 2 3.5s repaired a month ago at 45 euros each....

 

http://www.esu.eu/en/support/warranty-repair/reparaturen/servicepauschalen/austauschpauschalen/

Hi Pheaton

 

Your post made me re-check my e-mail from Esu and it definitly states that to replace the v3.5 chip with a v4 version will cost 87.61 euros. The reason given for the replacement and cost is "The article is no longer covered by warranty" I only asked for it to be repaired and wasn't expecting it to be done under warranty as it quite clearly was an older chip. 

 

I now wonder if something has been lost in translation here.

 

Regards

 

Stephen  

[SRman]

I'll be interested if you find out anything further on this, Stephen.

 

I have a v3.5 decoder with Howes' SR T9 sounds and it now only goes forwards but there is no drive in reverse and the sounds run away (no load!). It is quite an old decoder so well and truly out of warranty. I'd like to get it fixed but if they are going to charge almost new decoder prices it would be better to just cut my losses and buy a new one.

[Nigelcliffe]

Thx Stephen for the reply I have already contacted consumer direct who are part of citizens advice which in turn is the first port of call I know I have a good case with the trader but I go there alot and down want to have that burden with them every time I go I'm just waiting for a email of Bachmann with a copy of the warranty agreement then I can forward it to them and see want they say. I mean when push comes to shove its not like its a Bachmann fault it's a ESU. As a consumer I have rights. I think the only thing that I've done wrong is follow the service guild lines for a DDC decorder and not the DDC sound one. Which recommendes after a service remove chip and run on DC to brake back in. Cheers Ian

 

Regardless of how you feel,  the UK/EU consumer law is very clear.  Your rights are exercised through the retailer.  If the loco was used in accordance with instructions, and fails within an unreasonably short time, your complaint goes to the retailer.  If your complaint is valid under the law, then the retailer must arrange repair, replacement or refund as appropriate.  (The retailer might then take it up with their suppliers, but that's not directly in the consumer law).

 

Any warranty that Bachmann print is additional to the consumer law, hence a phrase along the lines of "your consumer rights are not affected by this warranty."  Bachmann can put anything in that warranty, and thus reject a claim.  But their rejection of the claim cannot overrule the consumer rights legislation.  

 

So, if the loco has failed early (it seems to have done) and if you were following reasonable practise (there is a small question on whether the service instructions followed were "reasonable"), then the retailer has to resolve it.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

[pheaton]

Hi Pheaton

 

Your post made me re-check my e-mail from Esu and it definitly states that to replace the v3.5 chip with a v4 version will cost 87.61 euros. The reason given for the replacement and cost is "The article is no longer covered by warranty" I only asked for it to be repaired and wasn't expecting it to be done under warranty as it quite clearly was an older chip. 

 

I now wonder if something has been lost in translation here.

 

Regards

 

Stephen  

Your right on that side Stephen the v3.5 to v 4 exchange program is 87 euros but.....they will replace 3.5 with another 3.5 decoder, which is what they did in my case.

 

[black and decker boy]

It sounds as though Bachmann may have a point. If you have had the loco serviced then the body will have been off and at that point the tape may have been taken off or fallen off. As the tape states quite clearly that the warranty is void if removed then you should be asking the service person why it isn't now on the loco. I am not sure why you had it serviced if it is only 9 months old. I run many locos on exhibition layouts and never have problems where locos need a service so soon, if anything it's usually the opposite where there is too much grease supplied when new.

 

As for getting it sorted, as those above have said your legal rights rest solely with the retailer. Unless they determine that your use is the cause or the fault is not caused by a manufacturing defect then they have to swap, repair or refund. They will then do likewise with Bachmann so will not themselves be out of pocket. You really do need to talk to the shop as I am sure they will be more than accommodating and will want to keep you as a valued customer.

[BodminJunction]

Hi my Bachmann Class 25 with Bachmann sound has just gone, it under 3 years, but due to the fact I am building my layout it's had very little use, maybe 30-40 hours running tops, spoke to Bachmann and they are not interested at all, disgusting service from them, will not buy a bachamn sound loco again

 

Andy

[pipparooba]

i got mine sorted. in the end i had to go right to the top. .cant say much on the matter as i was told not to i have learnt his use the sound locos often cuz if there goin to blow it will be in the first 2 hours of running i had a class 20 almost set my train alight there was that much smoke but charlie DC kits swopped it no problem then 3 months after that i had a 33 that i fitted turn the sound on it whaled screamed and didnt work again. the lights and motor control worked fine but same again from DC kits was swopped the next day. . so with that service in mind i only buy now from charlie