sean hpw Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 OK guys and gals, so, having got to a stale mate with the Huckwood layout (again!) I decided to go back to basics, and work from nothing again, the resulting brainstorm sugested I go and model based on just one colliery, not a hybrid of both, and as all the track is up I thought, why not go for EM gauge at the same time! Bestwood colliery is one of the Nottingham collierys, and I shall be modeling around about the 1930's. so plenty of small wagons knocking about and some very quirky steamers, at the moment we are at basboard stakes, so bare with me, hopefully some photos will emerge soon. in the mean time, this is the proposed track plan, the black zone is mainline (LMS/LNER) the red bit is to the exchange sidings, so both mainline locos and colliery locos could run there, the yellow is colliery only, the purple is my little bit of Narrow gauge (Must have a re-think about loco for that) size wise, the layout is 12 feet of scenic with 4 foot fiddle yards at each end, portable, as I would love to exhibit it one day. and 18 inches wide. Because I love to build things, most of the buildings are going to be scratch built. so... any questions or comments so far guys? Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean hpw Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 OK, so a slight change of plan, Im heading to P4. the reason being, it was niggling me that I was building track for something that is nearly right... however, in the mean time, while track is being built, started building boards, 3 foot long, and 18 inches wide. already, there are changes, the turn table has been removed, and this is the current track plan and the other boards should follow on I have already noticed that the main lines at the top take way more room that I want, so I will be reducing to one and a low reliefe line... Anyways, while the track is being built, I put some of the building salvaged from other projects into place, most are scratch built... stores I need to fiddle with the window frames, and make them a little more refined, and also work something with the glazing too... the Bestwood Viaduct (the tempury backscene to while the real one is painted!) and the colliery loco shed, the doors took a good hour to put together, and still are not quite right, I need to re-hang them and add hinges, the turn table has been removed and the hole filled. and the final shot of the night, with the some OO locos and stock from my collection, stood to see how things looked, the signal box base is match sticks (well mostly) with polystirine for the scenary... Any feedback welcome here people Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Hi Sean, I generally like the plan but I'm not entirely sure where your exchange sidings are? If they're where you have the red line and two yellow below - don't they need to be longer? Or, is that what you are saying in your second post? Also, while you can obviously go P4 if you want (I do a little in P4 so must condone it!) - I would caution against anything complex as a first go. You need to fit all new wheels to everything, probably build new chassis too and the points and trackwork are much less forgiving. Oh and you'll need larger radius points too so the plan would be harder to fit in. Sorry to be a bit negative and yes, I agree about the sentiment "while you're doing it, do it right" but P4 is a tougher nettle to grasp than EM IMHO! Cheers, John E. PS on more recent '00' models, you can simply re-gauge the existing wheels - not so in P4! PPS I have really good friends in both camps so not trying to start a gauge war, just giving my honest opinion and trying to help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean hpw Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Hi John E, I am thinking the exchange sidings are going to be off scene, as i decided I wanted more colliery, less track... where the lines end on the track plan is where the fiddle yard starts (under the arch cut out of the board that is the first photo of post two... I have been modeling OO for a few years now, and the more I learn the more it nags at me that there is a more accurate track out there, EM Ihave built well for micro layouts, and rapidly got bored of the lack of opporation for the layout that can be done in 2ft by 3 ft. so the 12 feet of Bestwood should give me ample room to play with. the GW lassies are for another project and will stay OO, most of the locos for Bestwood are kits in various stages, so re-gauging should be easier with them than an RTR loco I think.. I have a P4 wheel set on order for a Jinty 0-6-0, that should tell me how I get on with it... I do need to recheck the plan against P4, however, most of the main colliery its self (the yellow on the first track plan) can be done on small points (the biggest shunter is a short wheelbase 0-6-0) the mainline, as you say, will need much bigger points, which brings me to removing the upper most running line, when I get my own computer back, I should be able to re-draw the plan, which is better than verbalising it. your not being negutive at all, that is exactly the sort of thing I want to hear, John, constructive and well thought out comments, and thoughts. P4 does indeed sound like a tough nut to crack, but that (oddly) makes me want to try it more, if that makes sense? I have regauged a couple of wagons to EM for my plank (I have a plank with a few feet of EM and a point, soon to be joined by a few feet of P4 and a point) as you say, just be opening the back to back up on the excisting wheels... Thank you John, I apresiate it... Sean PS, sorry my responce is a little wordy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold John B Posted November 19, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2013 Sean - another word of caution: It looks like you've used PECO templates in your plans for the pointwork? P4 geometry is rather different and you'll find that the points will take up a lot more space than the equivalent OO points. If I'm wrong in my assumption, then ignore me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean hpw Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Close, its SCARM, as originally, the track plan was for OO, I am still trying to get TEMPLOT to export images so I can put them on the forum.. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2013 Close, its SCARM, as originally, the track plan was for OO, I am still trying to get TEMPLOT to export images so I can put them on the forum. Hi Sean, In Templot click the output > export a file (PDF, DXF, EMF, PNG, ...)... menu item. Then click the create image file... button on the right of the dialog. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean hpw Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 A huge thanks Martin, And may I thank you for bringing such a beautiful program to the free market Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted November 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hi there Sean. Well this is going to seem rather negative it isn't intended to be so and nether is it an attack on S4 modeling. I have the utmost respect for S4 modelers and I am a member of the S4 Society but I no longer model in S4. The main reason for this is because I didn't have the space to model what I wanted in S4 and after a big heart attack 5 years ago I realised that I proberly wouldn't live to see anything other than a shunting plank finished and shunting planks arn't my cup of tea. The other reason was one of cost both in time and money. Whatever the super keen S4 guys will tell you S4 is expensive. That aside S4 is not to be rushed into. Firstly there is the space issue. S4 turnouts are long. Much longer than Peco large radius points. The last bit of your track diagram for example will not fit on a 3ft baseboard. I think you would stuggle to get it on a six footer. So you will need to scale back your ambitions quite a bit. Then there is the stock as you cannot just regauge or even just replace your loco/rolling stock wheel sets. You will be needing some form of suspension. You can either go with the flexichas type of beam compensation or opt for springing for your locos. You will also need to use either rocking W irons or springing on all of your rolling stock, all of this will take time and money, lots of money and lots of time. There is lots of stuff out there to help you of course, gauges, jigs and etechs that are just stunning and some of them are fiendishly complicated and can drive a man insain. If I were you I would build a small shunting plank layout first, say 4 turnouts max. I would stay away from tandums and slips, yes they will save you space but arn't the easiest things in the world to build. Finish the Jinty with some form of suspension and build some compensated wagons. Then add up what you have spent on it then multiply that by what you want to build and then have a large stiff drink!! I don't just mean the money either add all the time up too then have another stiff drink!! As I said at the top of this its not intened to be negative but if you really intend to go S4 do so with your eyes open. If I had my time over again I would have stuck to EM because you can get away with taking liberties in EM and you can just regauge the wheels you don't need to build chassis with suspension for EM. Try re-spacing the sleepers on a bit of OO track to the correct spacing for 4mm. Ballast it up and weather it, you will be amazed at the result. Whatever road you choose to go down I wish you the very best of luck with it. If you do choose the S4 route there will be lots of advice and help out there from the S4 guys and girls including myself. I would suggest however that you join the S4 society as the stores sevrice is superb and the on line section has a wealth of knowllage. Best of luck. Regards Lez.Z. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2013 Firstly there is the space issue. S4 turnouts are long. Much longer than Peco large radius points. Hi Lez, Not necessarily. Individual P4 turnouts tend to be longer than 00 gauge equivalents, but when combined into a track plan they can be shorter. Here are two crossovers of approximately the same radius. The upper one is P4. It is actually a bit shorter than the lower one, which is comprised of Peco Large Radius turnouts: The radius is getting a bit tight for P4 as you can see in the info panel, but not excessively so. It is perfectly doable. It uses 12ft straight switches and 1:5.75 V-crossings. Much shorter turnouts are possible in P4 and are often used by modellers working in a cramped space. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndon Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 You will be needing some form of suspension. You can either go with the flexichas type of beam compensation or opt for springing for your locos. You will also need to use either rocking W irons or springing on all of your rolling stock, all of this will take time and money, lots of money and lots of time. I don't think you need suspension on a small plank, with the exception of 2 wagons I bought on eBay, none of my rolling stock has any form of suspension or compensation, just a straight wheel swap, and it all stays on the track perfectly well despite my dodgy track work I believe that neither of the two HSTs in this video of Calcutta Sidings have any form of suspension: John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Sean I fell over this by accident Please add your layout link to your signature, it makes it much easier for people to come see how you are doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean hpw Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 Hi there Sean. Well this is going to seem rather negative it isn't intended to be so and nether is it an attack on S4 modeling. I have the utmost respect for S4 modelers and I am a member of the S4 Society but I no longer model in S4. The main reason for this is because I didn't have the space to model what I wanted in S4 and after a big heart attack 5 years ago I realised that I proberly wouldn't live to see anything other than a shunting plank finished and shunting planks arn't my cup of tea. The other reason was one of cost both in time and money. Whatever the super keen S4 guys will tell you S4 is expensive. That aside S4 is not to be rushed into. Firstly there is the space issue. S4 turnouts are long. Much longer than Peco large radius points. The last bit of your track diagram for example will not fit on a 3ft baseboard. I think you would stuggle to get it on a six footer. So you will need to scale back your ambitions quite a bit. Then there is the stock as you cannot just regauge or even just replace your loco/rolling stock wheel sets. You will be needing some form of suspension. You can either go with the flexichas type of beam compensation or opt for springing for your locos. You will also need to use either rocking W irons or springing on all of your rolling stock, all of this will take time and money, lots of money and lots of time. There is lots of stuff out there to help you of course, gauges, jigs and etechs that are just stunning and some of them are fiendishly complicated and can drive a man insain. If I were you I would build a small shunting plank layout first, say 4 turnouts max. I would stay away from tandums and slips, yes they will save you space but arn't the easiest things in the world to build. Finish the Jinty with some form of suspension and build some compensated wagons. Then add up what you have spent on it then multiply that by what you want to build and then have a large stiff drink!! I don't just mean the money either add all the time up too then have another stiff drink!! As I said at the top of this its not intened to be negative but if you really intend to go S4 do so with your eyes open. If I had my time over again I would have stuck to EM because you can get away with taking liberties in EM and you can just regauge the wheels you don't need to build chassis with suspension for EM. Try re-spacing the sleepers on a bit of OO track to the correct spacing for 4mm. Ballast it up and weather it, you will be amazed at the result. Whatever road you choose to go down I wish you the very best of luck with it. If you do choose the S4 route there will be lots of advice and help out there from the S4 guys and girls including myself. I would suggest however that you join the S4 society as the stores sevrice is superb and the on line section has a wealth of knowllage. Best of luck. Regards Lez.Z. Hiyaa Lez, first up, never appologize for putting our thoughts out there, I know its ment well, as much as I do love the idea, and it will pull me forever more, EM seems more sensible for the moment, the P4 jinty was OK, but the EM was much more fun to build, and was far more fun to work with, so for this project, EM it is so thank you for the input, and I have noted what you said, for another day anywho, this is the new EM plot, the upper most track represents the main line, the lowwer portion is the colliery, as with the others, the excange siding is off scene, and there is still much to do, so thoughts please Jaz, I will do, when I remember how to do so Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean hpw Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 Okay ladys and gentlemen, its been entirely too long since i even looked at this project, (work and so on!) so, I have had a long hard think and a play, P4 is a nice thing, but such a pain in the backside for me to work its never going to get finished, so I am sticking EM, the trial Jinty was sold along with the few bits I made P4 scale, and work on the layout has resumed. first up the innitial plan for everything on 12 feet has gone right out the window, inspired by Warren lane, i intend to be able to use the layout in 3 different forms, and stagger the construction so i can get the smallest bit working and up to some form of standard before adding more to it. Bestwood small will still be 12 feet scenic with a pair of 4 foot cassette fiddle yards, which the plan (a little later in the post) will be for, which will include the screens, No1 and No2 shafts and a good portion of the colliery facilities, inluding the Bestwood Iron and Coal co's loco maintanance shop's (hence the little headshunt on the upper line) in the Medium formation, the layout becomes L shaped, 16 feet long and 10 deep, plus the same pair of 4 foot fiddle yards, the side in question will house the loco shed and tar plant (or at least I assume it is a tar and coking plant, with the number of upright tanks and the link to the mine.... the whole layout eventually will be a full loop will be 25 feet long and 15 deep, with a sizable ladder fiddle yard at the back, and exchange siding at the opposite side to the tar/coke plant, Elevated at the back 6 inches (not shown) will be a representation of the goods line from Grantham Via Nottingham to Sheffield, so a huge range of services can be run as well as the obvious shunting movements.... Anywho, the plan for the first 12 feet the headshunt is to the loco shop, and the dead end siding's are to the screens, Bestwood didn't get through screens until the late 40's as far as I can find. Thoughts, feelings and suggestions guys? Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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