DCC Newbie - Converting from analogue

[andybuttterworth1962]

Hi All

 

I was inspired by Oak Hill TMD at the recent Worthing MRC exhibition and after a chat and advice from Dave and Paul I decided to bite the bullet and convert to DCC and sound.

 

At Dave's suggestion - here's how I 'got' on.....

 

 

 

My layout is not large by any standards - basically a 'U' shape; 8ft x 12ft x 10ft; the ends of the U being 5 road fiddle yards. It is basically a through station, with a small engineers yard and depot. It is wired through normal DC practice - 40 isolating sections - so plenty of room to 'park' locos; points fed at all ends to ensure good continuity and powered by an old but brilliant Codar TEC-88.

 

Stock is EMU's, and Class 33's and 50's with solitary examples of classes 08, 47 and 73. Mid 80's in period, so lots of blue/grey and NSE. The cost of converting in excess of 30 powered units to sound is quite daunting and had always put me off - so it'll be a very long process! I have far too much stock than is required in reality - certainly can't fit it all on the layout.

 

 

Anyway I splashed out and just before last weekend the kit turned up -
NCE Power Cab
8 Bachmann 8-pin chips
2 Bachmann 21-pin chips
2 Loksound V4's 1x33 and 1x50 -with sounds by Biff

 

So the great transition began - all stock not to be converted was boxed up and stacked away - leaving
5 x Heljan class 33's
1 x Heljan class 47
3 x Hornby class 50
1 x Bachmann class 411 4-CEP
1 x Bachmann class 416 2-EPB
1 x Hornby class 423

All units were removed from the rails to avoid any potential damage from the DCC power

Wiring up the NCE Power Cab was simple - drop the old analogue controller from the main bus feed and attach the powercab - all sections switches to 'live' and a quick multimeter check confirmed 13.4 volts everywhere.

The first victim was the class 47 - body off using the old credit card technique - removed the blanking plug and....starred at the PCB trying to identify pin1.  - Why is it not marked? It would cost nothing to add a bit of artwork to the board. A quick check on the web directed me to the excellent Bromsgrove Models web site - can't recommend it enough! So the 47 was duly placed on the track and programmed - I have to say my initial impressions were good - slow speed control was excellent.

Getting the rest of the Heljan stock up and running really was simple. A couple run in the 'wrong' direction - I assume due the motor wiring being reversed, so that'll need sorting! The sound on the 33 is excellent - I haven't finished the installation so the speaker enclosure and chip are just blue-tacked to the pcb with the loco running without the body shell. I shall be putting a bass reflex speaker in the tanks - i'll post how I get on. The control with the loksound V4 is amazing out of the 'box' - fantastic Biff!

The Bachmann EMU's were next - getting the body off is the hard bit - but installing the decoder and getting them running was a doddle........

....but then Hornby!

 

Having lifted the lids on 3 class 50's I was confronted by 3 different PCB's! and 1 had a 12 pin connector - I have to say I was confused. So favoured loco - Ark Royal was duly fitted with a decoder - and nothing, not a jot - dead as a parrot! So all 7 50's were duly opened up to find out what was inside. After much head scratching and more web searching - including this forum - their is a problem with Hornby Class 50 pcb's. I eventually got 3 working (1 sound - awesome), so now had '02, '04 and '11 up and running.

...... then the VEP or rather the nightmare! Taking it apart is not easy - and the little connector on the floor mounted pcb was a pain. Still the decoder popped in easily and was stuck to the roof mounted pcb. On to the track - and the problems really began - it is uncontrollable! Increasing the throttle to 1 sends it off in an alarmingly jerky manner at a crazy speed, and it is not until speed setting 3 that it calms down and runs correctly - not sure where to go next?

 

So week 1 ends with the following conclusions  - good bits, bad bits and stuff I wish I had known

 

The NCE Power Cab -

1. Great controller - easy to use and get started.......

2. Use the recall function - and set it up. The factory default is 2 in the stack - set this to the maximum of 6. When selecting a loco it clears all previous settings, so if a sound loco is sat idling it will shut down as F1 is turned off - so set the stack to 6 and recall them.

3. Set the momentum to 9 - works great with the Bachmann EMU's - but remember to throttle off in good time!

 

 

Bachmann 8-pin decoders

Work well out of the box - I haven't changed any CV settings yet, but in the loco's I am using I'm not sure I would. I have found setting F3 - Shunting speed reduction - ON gives superb slow speed control - and I can't see any reason to turn it off

 

Bachmann 21-pin decoders in Bachmann EMU's

Excellent control - I set the momentum to 9 and leave it there - both units drive superbly. My only criticism is on the 2-EPB - The factory blurb states F0 for blind lights and F1 for coach lighting - on my unit F0 turns the whole lot on - there is no independent control.

 

Loksound V4 with Biff Sounds

Initial impressions are excellent, the control is fantastic - but you have to 'learn to drive them'. I shall use bass reflex speakers so that'll be another post. For some reason the 33 is a lot louder than the 50, but I'm sure it can be adjusted.

 

Hornby 50's

PCB issues were an unexpected problem - you would have thought Hornby had this sorted. From my experiences this week, part no 1621-X009R5 is the one to use. Control is excellent and the sound version surpassed my expectations.

 

Hornby VEP

Seriously disappointing! I know many people have had problems with VEP's, but mine has been great on DC analogue - with none of the poor running issues reported elsewhere -  I'll persevere, but a 3-VEP + 33/1 is on the cards right now!  If anyone has any ideas please let me know. I can see it being on the workbench for a while - but it'll give me an opportunity to rebuild the DTCL interiors.

 

 

 

So that was week 1.

 

 

 

Cheers all

Andy

 

[pipparooba]

With some of your loco's running the wrong way your power cab can sort that also with note to you dmu running off at high speed with only a few speed steps you just need to slow the top speed down I think it's cv 6 and cv 5 should be set to half that. I only now have biffs sound chips in mine but the dcc fitted ones I found the lenz chips a little better for some reason. I also have a power cab and there are some great extra add on's for them. My first on was a programming detection unit as not to programme all your loco's at once. I learnt the hard way. Also was a USB interface a great peace of kit for programming loco's and changing cv very easy also with a few downloads and connecting to the house modem I now have control on my iPod. The world off dcc is much more fun with sound.

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi All

 

I was inspired by Oak Hill TMD at the recent Worthing MRC exhibition and after a chat and advice from Dave and Paul I decided to bite the bullet and convert to DCC and sound.

 

At Dave's suggestion - here's how I 'got' on.....

 

 

 

My layout is not large by any standards - basically a 'U' shape; 8ft x 12ft x 10ft; the ends of the U being 5 road fiddle yards. It is basically a through station, with a small engineers yard and depot. It is wired through normal DC practice - 40 isolating sections - so plenty of room to 'park' locos; points fed at all ends to ensure good continuity and powered by an old but brilliant Codar TEC-88.

 

Stock is EMU's, and Class 33's and 50's with solitary examples of classes 08, 47 and 73. Mid 80's in period, so lots of blue/grey and NSE. The cost of converting in excess of 30 powered units to sound is quite daunting and had always put me off - so it'll be a very long process! I have far too much stock than is required in reality - certainly can't fit it all on the layout.

 

 

Anyway I splashed out and just before last weekend the kit turned up -

NCE Power Cab

8 Bachmann 8-pin chips

2 Bachmann 21-pin chips

2 Loksound V4's 1x33 and 1x50 -with sounds by Biff

 

So the great transition began - all stock not to be converted was boxed up and stacked away - leaving

5 x Heljan class 33's

1 x Heljan class 47

3 x Hornby class 50

1 x Bachmann class 411 4-CEP

1 x Bachmann class 416 2-EPB

1 x Hornby class 423

 

All units were removed from the rails to avoid any potential damage from the DCC power

 

Wiring up the NCE Power Cab was simple - drop the old analogue controller from the main bus feed and attach the powercab - all sections switches to 'live' and a quick multimeter check confirmed 13.4 volts everywhere.

 

The first victim was the class 47 - body off using the old credit card technique - removed the blanking plug and....starred at the PCB trying to identify pin1.  - Why is it not marked? It would cost nothing to add a bit of artwork to the board. A quick check on the web directed me to the excellent Bromsgrove Models web site - can't recommend it enough! So the 47 was duly placed on the track and programmed - I have to say my initial impressions were good - slow speed control was excellent.

 

Getting the rest of the Heljan stock up and running really was simple. A couple run in the 'wrong' direction - I assume due the motor wiring being reversed, so that'll need sorting! The sound on the 33 is excellent - I haven't finished the installation so the speaker enclosure and chip are just blue-tacked to the pcb with the loco running without the body shell. I shall be putting a bass reflex speaker in the tanks - i'll post how I get on. The control with the loksound V4 is amazing out of the 'box' - fantastic Biff!

 

The Bachmann EMU's were next - getting the body off is the hard bit - but installing the decoder and getting them running was a doddle........

 

....but then Hornby!

 

Having lifted the lids on 3 class 50's I was confronted by 3 different PCB's! and 1 had a 12 pin connector - I have to say I was confused. So favoured loco - Ark Royal was duly fitted with a decoder - and nothing, not a jot - dead as a parrot! So all 7 50's were duly opened up to find out what was inside. After much head scratching and more web searching - including this forum - their is a problem with Hornby Class 50 pcb's. I eventually got 3 working (1 sound - awesome), so now had '02, '04 and '11 up and running.

 

...... then the VEP or rather the nightmare! Taking it apart is not easy - and the little connector on the floor mounted pcb was a pain. Still the decoder popped in easily and was stuck to the roof mounted pcb. On to the track - and the problems really began - it is uncontrollable! Increasing the throttle to 1 sends it off in an alarmingly jerky manner at a crazy speed, and it is not until speed setting 3 that it calms down and runs correctly - not sure where to go next?

 

So week 1 ends with the following conclusions  - good bits, bad bits and stuff I wish I had known

 

The NCE Power Cab -

1. Great controller - easy to use and get started.......

2. Use the recall function - and set it up. The factory default is 2 in the stack - set this to the maximum of 6. When selecting a loco it clears all previous settings, so if a sound loco is sat idling it will shut down as F1 is turned off - so set the stack to 6 and recall them.

3. Set the momentum to 9 - works great with the Bachmann EMU's - but remember to throttle off in good time!

 

 

Bachmann 8-pin decoders

Work well out of the box - I haven't changed any CV settings yet, but in the loco's I am using I'm not sure I would. I have found setting F3 - Shunting speed reduction - ON gives superb slow speed control - and I can't see any reason to turn it off

 

Bachmann 21-pin decoders in Bachmann EMU's

Excellent control - I set the momentum to 9 and leave it there - both units drive superbly. My only criticism is on the 2-EPB - The factory blurb states F0 for blind lights and F1 for coach lighting - on my unit F0 turns the whole lot on - there is no independent control.

 

Loksound V4 with Biff Sounds

Initial impressions are excellent, the control is fantastic - but you have to 'learn to drive them'. I shall use bass reflex speakers so that'll be another post. For some reason the 33 is a lot louder than the 50, but I'm sure it can be adjusted.

 

Hornby 50's

PCB issues were an unexpected problem - you would have thought Hornby had this sorted. From my experiences this week, part no 1621-X009R5 is the one to use. Control is excellent and the sound version surpassed my expectations.

 

Hornby VEP

Seriously disappointing! I know many people have had problems with VEP's, but mine has been great on DC analogue - with none of the poor running issues reported elsewhere -  I'll persevere, but a 3-VEP + 33/1 is on the cards right now!  If anyone has any ideas please let me know. I can see it being on the workbench for a while - but it'll give me an opportunity to rebuild the DTCL interiors.

 

 

 

So that was week 1.

 

 

 

Cheers all

Andy

 

 

 

Hi Andy

 

Glad you got on Quite well.

 

I'm very surprised at the reverse running. Are you making sure that the throttle says FWD (or REV) each time you try a loco. Is it the same when you lift an offending loco off, turn it around and replace it on the track. It's not like DC where the loco will travel in the same direction whatever way you place it on the track.

 

Anyway, glad you joined the band.

 

Cheers

 

Dave (fat grey one at Worthing)

[dasatcopthorne]

Andy.

 

The Class 50 with 12 pins!

 

You only use eight of them.

 

Dave

[SRman]

Are you sure you haven't got the Heljan ones running in reverse inserted the wrong way round? Do the lights work? If they do then you are probably right about them being wired backwards. It is relatively easy to correct this once and for all by reversing the brush feed connections on the PCB. Otherwise, read the value in CV 29 on the programming track, then just add 1 to that value if it is an even number, subtract 1 if the initial value was odd (unlikely in your case).

 

For the class 50s (and any Hornby class 31s, 56s and 60s too, for that matter - for anyone else reading this) with 12 pin sockets, use only the marked grouping of eight, ignore the other marked group of four.

For the VEP units, tweaking the top and mid-speed settings (CVs 5 and 6, respectively), start voltage (CV2), and inertia/momentum (CVs 3 and 4) can all improve the running but before doing any of that, remove the capacitors from the motor bogie. Just doing that last step made a big difference to mine. Check the decoder manual for the ones you used to see if the BEMF settings can be changed too as this can make a big difference to certain motor characteristics - the VEPs don't have the massive flywheels that most of the others you mentioned have so the motor characteristics are quite different.

To run them on 128 speed steps, look to the bottom part of the Power Cab and you will see a button marked 28/128; this simply toggles between the two settings and you will get a readout on the display panel saying which you have chosen.

Good luck with the DCC program. There is a bit of a learning curve involved but you'll most likely never want to go back to analogue once you get the hang of it. As a Power Cab / Power Pro user myself, I think you made a good choice!

 

Edit: additional: read the Power Cab manual and find the bit on reprogramming the 'Option' key so you can easily access any functions above 12; this will be useful for the sound locomotives. Once you do this, pressing 'Option' once adds 10 to the function number, pressing it twice adds 20 to the number of the function key you press. As it comes out of the box, you can access up to F12, using the 'Shift' key and the three other buttons beside it, all at the bottom of the control panel.

[dasatcopthorne]

Andy, et al.

 

May I proffer a suggestion before you alter too many CVs

 

A have a 'MS Word' page on my computer that I have set up that I copy the 'driving instructions' into from the Chip maker/sound file producer. I keep this in a file as a record for each individual loco. It contains the chip type and version number, the sound provider and their sound file version, date bought etc., etc.

 

More importantly, as soon as I fit a chip and the loco runs and makes sounds (if appropriate) I use the 'programing track mode' to record the CV settings for CVs 2(start voltage), 3(acceleration time), 4(deceleration), 5(max voltage), 6(half throttle voltage), 63(sound volume), 64(brake squeal on) and 65(brake squeal off).

 

I also record against CV53 whether I have used the Motor Matching facility or not, As per Biff's instruction sheet. I try not to use this as I think it resets some CVs but I am not 100% certain on that.

 

If I alter any CVs, I then record the new CV values in a second (and maybe 3rd, 4th) column so that I have a record of all the changes made and giving the possibility of returning to the originals set by the chip seller.

 

Here is one for a Biff chip.

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

Dave

 

 

57312 CVs.doc

 

 

 

[SRman]

I agree wholeheartedly with Dave's advice regarding recording the values before changing them. That way, if something doesn't work the way you expected it to, you can get back to the original settings and start again. Of course, you can also reset any decoder back to its factory settings anyway but that doesn't help with working out the best values for a given model.

 

In giving my advice in the previous post I have assumed the VEP is not fitted with sound and the decoder you have chosen may or may not have an auto-tuning facility for the BEMF settings.

 

My two existing VEPs run mostly very nicely with TCS decoders fitted - there can be a little 'chatter' at very slow speeds but the actual running is smooth.

[andybuttterworth1962]

Hi All - Many thanks for all your advice and wisdom

 

I have finally got the VEP running - and very nicely too, especially at slow speed. It took a long time adjusting the CV values - very easy with the PowerCab once you get the hang of it. The main changes were to CV's 54 and 55  -the motor feedback parameters - which ended up very different from the Bachmann factory (default settings.

 

So for anyone out there putting a Bachmann 8-pin decoder (36-553) into a Hornby VEP make sure you change CV54  and CV55.

I ended up with

CV54 = 002

CV55 = 060

 

I have recorded all CV values as suggested - very helpful.

 

Apologies for the confusion with reverse running - I was thinking DC analogue mode - they don't run in reverse as the lights are on correctly - doh!

 

 

Hopefully this weekend will see the sound loco's fitted with bass reflex speakers  -  i'll post how I get on

 

 

Cheers

Andy

[andybuttterworth1962]

Hi All

 

After getting a couple of sound loco's up and running I have certainly been impressed, so went and got a few more chips and a couple more of Biff;s 33's from DC Kits.

 

I found them very simple to install - bass speaker in the fuel tanks and drill a hole in the chassis to lead the wires through.

 

So far I have completed 3 x 33's and a 50. Plenty of room in the 50 for a bass reflex speaker by taking the fan drive out.

 

 

 

I also picked up a Bachmann 37 with factory sound for a reasonable price - but have found it very disappointing - poor sound matching to throttle position - half the time it seems to make it up - not the quality I was expecting, so i'll strip it and send to Biff for a reblow.. I've read the threads on here, so wasn't expecting it to match Biff's, but is all OEM sound really that bad?

 

Still finding Hornby kit immensely frustrating. I managed to get one '73204' up a running by tweaking the cv's - to somewhat similar to the VEP as stated above - good tip Dave to keep a log of the cv values - I have found myself changing CV's and loosing thread of were I am. The 2nd one 73129 (NSE) has proved impossible to set up. With a 'clean reset' decoder installed it creeps down the track - and is uncontrollable. I copied the values from 73204 - very easy using the NCE Powercab - but with no success. The Powercab seems to detect a short circuit and reset itself - all very strange - anyone else come across the same problem? The decoder is ok as I popped it into a Heljan 47 and it work perfectly. The 73 runs ok on DC so I am at a complete loss as to an explanation

 

Is it just me or have Hornby dropped the ball? I seem to remember they were one of the first manufacturer's to dabble in DCC control and I would have thought by now they'd have it sussed! DCC ready locos should be just that - drop in a chip and off you go!

 

Have to say the change over was worth doing -  certainly wouldn't go back!

 

Cheers

Andy

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi All

 

After getting a couple of sound loco's up and running I have certainly been impressed, so went and got a few more chips and a couple more of Biff;s 33's from DC Kits.

 

I found them very simple to install - bass speaker in the fuel tanks and drill a hole in the chassis to lead the wires through.

 

So far I have completed 3 x 33's and a 50. Plenty of room in the 50 for a bass reflex speaker by taking the fan drive out.

 

 

 

I also picked up a Bachmann 37 with factory sound for a reasonable price - but have found it very disappointing - poor sound matching to throttle position - half the time it seems to make it up - not the quality I was expecting, so i'll strip it and send to Biff for a reblow.. I've read the threads on here, so wasn't expecting it to match Biff's, but is all OEM sound really that bad?

 

Still finding Hornby kit immensely frustrating. I managed to get one '73204' up a running by tweaking the cv's - to somewhat similar to the VEP as stated above - good tip Dave to keep a log of the cv values - I have found myself changing CV's and loosing thread of were I am. The 2nd one 73129 (NSE) has proved impossible to set up. With a 'clean reset' decoder installed it creeps down the track - and is uncontrollable. I copied the values from 73204 - very easy using the NCE Powercab - but with no success. The Powercab seems to detect a short circuit and reset itself - all very strange - anyone else come across the same problem? The decoder is ok as I popped it into a Heljan 47 and it work perfectly. The 73 runs ok on DC so I am at a complete loss as to an explanation

 

Is it just me or have Hornby dropped the ball? I seem to remember they were one of the first manufacturer's to dabble in DCC control and I would have thought by now they'd have it sussed! DCC ready locos should be just that - drop in a chip and off you go!

 

Have to say the change over was worth doing -  certainly wouldn't go back!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

 

Hi Andy.

 

Glad to hear that you are progressing.

 

Re the dodgy running, have you tried the 'self tuning' feature of the V4 chip.

 

I think it's CV53 but check the 'help sheet' for the right number.

 

This might just cure your problem.

 

I believe it changes lots of CV values so don't forget to noted them first.

 

Best of luck.

 

Dave.

[andybuttterworth1962]

Hi Dave

 

Got a bit confused in translation - the Hornby class 73's I have fitted with Bachmann 8-pin 3 function chips - not the Lok V4, so I don't think their is a 'self learn' facility.

 

Still don't understand why it doesn't work in the 2nd one. Same decoder, same CV setting, but unusable. As I said in previous post, runs fine on DC and the decoder runs fine in a Heljan 47. - very frustraiting!

 

Cheers

Andy

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Dave

 

Got a bit confused in translation - the Hornby class 73's I have fitted with Bachmann 8-pin 3 function chips - not the Lok V4, so I don't think their is a 'self learn' facility.

 

Still don't understand why it doesn't work in the 2nd one. Same decoder, same CV setting, but unusable. As I said in previous post, runs fine on DC and the decoder runs fine in a Heljan 47. - very frustraiting!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

 

Andy.

 

I haven't got a Class 73 with Hornby power but I have just bought two spare Brighton Belle bogies and I guess they're the same.

 

The two I have both have a capacitor soldered across the motor terminals.

 

Try disconnecting one lead from the motor and see if there is any difference.

 

Good luck

 

Dave

 

 

edit.

 

Just looked again and I see on these bogies that the motor leads are soldered to the cap. So what we are basically saying is that you need to take the cap out of use some how.