GWML Electification

[phil-b259]

There are headspans and headspans, the ECML was wired on the cheap including the headspans. Take a look at Germany where practically anything more than double track has headspans, and has had for 70 years or so.

Regards

 

Linespeeds please

 

Headspans are indeed quite widely used in Germany, but as far as I know not on lines where the speed gets much above 100mph. Above that portals are used for multi track areas. I also remind you that the IEPs have a design speed of 140mph and there is a plan to run them at that speed through Goring I believe as soon as the GWML gets ETRMS level 2 fitted. As such the OHLE NR are installing has to be suitable for operation at such speeds by multiple unit style trains with two pantographs in use not that far apart in a single train and headspans are not suitable for this.

[Reorte]

Getting back to the actual trains for a mo, so when two units are coupled together, will there be separate catering facilities in each half?

 

How does it currently work on two coupled Voyagers - are there two refreshment trolleys, or at a station stop, is it transferred from one unit to the other?

Not just catering that's an issue, we were all turfed off one Voyager once when two were coupled together (temporary Pendolino replacement for some reason I've forgotten) because the staff weren't available for both.

[Fat Controller]

Are there different designs of headspan in use? I travelled on the Bedpan Line/Thameslink as a commuter for 25 years and I remember very few incidents of headspan failure and no speed restrictions in high winds. Of course not 140 mph, but definitely multiple pantographs.

 

Or is it that the line happens to run in areas where high winds are not a problem and Bedpan units (317/319) had a design of pantograph which was less likely to cause problems? I can't speak for the last eight years and the newer units.

 

Jonathan

Thameslink has had quite a few dewirings in recent years.

[phil-b259]

Are there different designs of headspan in use? I travelled on the Bedpan Line/Thameslink as a commuter for 25 years and I remember very few incidents of headspan failure and no speed restrictions in high winds. Of course not 140 mph, but definitely multiple pantographs.

 

Or is it that the line happens to run in areas where high winds are not a problem and Bedpan units (317/319) had a design of pantograph which was less likely to cause problems? I can't speak for the last eight years and the newer units.

 

Jonathan

 

On the St Pancras to Bedford scheme, the 319 units only get up to 110mph, plus both the units pantographs were designed with this fact in mind. I severely doubt that the OHLE would be up to running them at 125mph on a regular basis before we started to see the same issues develop as on the ECML. Its one of the things NR will have to address as the wires progress further and further north from Bedford.

[Reorte]

People will soon get used to it. It has been so long since there was any significant new infrastructure in the UK that people are no longer used to change.

If you think that it's merely a bit of difference that's the question. Anyway I don't see any virtue in being used to and accepting change. Improvement, yes, just change, no. Take the picture you posted - the portals look pretty terrible and I've never seen the location before, so it doesn't represent a change to something I'm familiar with. You can argue that overall they contributed towards an improvement that's worth having despite that, but I cannot agree that the only problem with the appearance is that it's different.

[phil-b259]

If you think that it's merely a bit of difference that's the question. Anyway I don't see any virtue in being used to and accepting change. Improvement, yes, just change, no. Take the picture you posted - the portals look pretty terrible and I've never seen the location before, so it doesn't represent a change to something I'm familiar with. You can argue that overall they contributed towards an improvement that's worth having despite that, but I cannot agree that the only problem with the appearance is that it's different.

 

'Accepting' is not the same thing as 'liking'. It is perfectly possible to dislike any particular change yet at the same time accept the rational engineering / scientific / economic reasons why that particular change has been made over alternative options.

 

Emotion and the laws of physics are two separate things and should stay that way - which does not preclude anyone having separate views on each as long as they do not get confused.

[Reorte]

Yet which ultimately all boil down to what people perceive as value, which is arguably emotional at its roots. Something either makes life better or it doesn't and that is fundamentally an emotional thing. The laws of physics and so on determine what's possible, emotion as what's desirable.

[Talltim]

On the St Pancras to Bedford scheme, the 319 units only get up to 110mph100mph, plus both the units pantographs were designed with this fact in mind. I severely doubt that the OHLE would be up to running them at 125mph on a regular basis before we started to see the same issues develop as on the ECML. Its one of the things NR will have to address as the wires progress further and further north from Bedford.

I was sure that the 319s were 90mph max, I remember them coming in and I'm sure they were slower than the 317, which were 100mph, but it seems I was wrong. (I can remember standing in an intermediate cab in a 317 pair and watching the speedo at a bit over 100mph)

Edited January 19, 2016 by Talltim

[black and decker boy]

On the St Pancras to Bedford scheme, the 319 units only get up to 110mph, plus both the units pantographs were designed with this fact in mind. I severely doubt that the OHLE would be up to running them at 125mph on a regular basis before we started to see the same issues develop as on the ECML. Its one of the things NR will have to address as the wires progress further and further north from Bedford.

319s are 100mph only.

 

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319%20Brochure.pdf

 

110mph is currently only certified for the latest units, 350 and 387 types.

[The Stationmaster]

They take pictures looking along the railway so that the structures are prominent, you'd have to make a special trip to the overbridge to take that shot. Most of the stretch there is in a cutting or behind trees. Then witter on how the whole area is despoilt. Haven't they got anything else more important to worry about? Do any of them use the railway? It's in a commuter belt, with houses fetching high prices due to the mere existence of the railway. Self important w*****s, we've got far too "touchy feely"!

Here are a  few pics taken from lineside and looking along the line on both the GWML section and the Crossrail section.

 

The first two are in Pangbourne looking up at the structures from the roadway a few yards north of the road bridge under the railway in the centre of the village.  Incidentally as I understand things everything on all of these structures is absolutely complete in respect what is needed for the fitting of the contact and catenary wires and they are ready to wire in that respect; there really are very simple fittings to take those two wires -

 

 

 

Now a view taken a month or so earlier looking west from Tilehurst station Up Relief Line platform, the Swiss design heritage of the structures being very apparent in both this view and the one below -

 

 

And finally a view looking west from the Down main Line platform at Slough taken in the week following Christmas and with some structures still to be completed (not some of the structures span a space equivalent to 5 running lines) -

 

[The Stationmaster]

I do wonder what the objectors do when they leave their leafy rural idyll. Would they not perhaps sometimes use motorways or new roads, which have a massive detrimental effect on both the countryside and those unfortunate to enough to live alongside them ? That would be utterly hypocritical, opposing something of massive benefit to others due to a small effect on oneself, while not giving a stuff about one's own impact on others. However I might be wrong, perhaps they only travel by horse using green lanes and bridleways.

There are a remarkable percentage of SUVs and other 4wd vehicles (of the fancy kind) in the area - however many of the drivers of them take considerable care not to drive through puddles on rainy days (they much prefer to use the side of the road which is rightfully that for folk going in the opposite direction and some of them get very upset to see 1.5 tonnes of estate car coming towards them in a manner which suggests they ought really to stay on their own side of the road).

Edited January 19, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[31A]

You only need to look at some of the pictures of Swiss railways posted recently by DaveF to see numerous examples of portal type structure in use there; I can't imagine anybody being more environmentally-conscious than the Swiss, in breathtaking scenery beside which (I'm sorry!) the Thames Valley pales into insignificance.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98009-a-few-of-dave-fs-european-railway-photos-updated-19th-january-2016/page-22

[Northroader]

Oh, I did enjoy that rant, sorry! I won't get carried away again, promise. Two points on the way home this afternoon, nothing has happened at Twyford yet, it looks terribly bare in comparison to places on either side, and then going over Basildon bridge, on HST doing a ton, "whatever was that?" There's some sort of tubular erections on the bridge. Is it the new sensitive to the environment structure? Will the inhabitants of Goring leap about clutching it to their bosoms?? Have they taken the wrapping off it ??? Call me old fashioned, but the new structures are really nice, now I've gone through them a few times. Further up, we overtook a container train, and sideways on, there's not a lot of clearance between the register arms and the top of the train, obviously there must be some.

[The Stationmaster]

Oh, I did enjoy that rant, sorry! I won't get carried away again, promise. Two points on the way home this afternoon, nothing has happened at Twyford yet, it looks terribly bare in comparison to places on either side, and then going over Basildon bridge, on HST doing a ton, "whatever was that?" There's some sort of tubular erections on the bridge. Is it the new sensitive to the environment structure? Will the inhabitants of Goring leap about clutching it to their bosoms?? Have they taken the wrapping off it ??? Call me old fashioned, but the new structures are really nice, now I've gone through them a few times. Further up, we overtook a container train, and sideways on, there's not a lot of clearance between the register arms and the top of the train, obviously there must be some.

I think the ones on the bridge at Lower Basildon are the 'environmentally sensitive' ones I saw being installed a few weeks back.

 

And things have happened at Twyford -- for several weeks now there have been some great big rectangular markings with a  cross in the middle at the west end of the Up Relief platform and in one of my earlier comments I referred to a conversation I had with a couple of contractors who were looking at them and writings things on a  clipboard.   And what does a clipboard mean?  A clipboard means someone somewhere is thinking about it, I think.

[exet1095]

What a way to run a whelk stall.

 

Meanwhile, the first class 387s are due in Reading next month. Allegedly, they will use them on Hayes terminators as crew training gets going. I look forward to spotting them from the flyover when they get to the depot.

[jonny777]

Best not mention pendolinos then... Or the pan to transformer cabling in every EMU.

 

 

Thanks, I was not aware of that. Although my recollections probably do stem from the discussions surrounding the introduction of the APT. After that I began to lose interest somewhat and became a misty eyed, rose spectacled nostalgic.

[Siberian Snooper]

There are a remarkable percentage of SUVs and other 4wd vehicles (of the fancy kind) in the area - however many of the drivers of them take considerable care not to drive through puddles on rainy days (they much prefer to use the side of the road which is rightfully that for folk going in the opposite direction and some of them get very upset to see 1.5 tonnes of estate car coming towards them in a manner which suggests they ought really to stay on their own side of the road).

I used to do the same with a 8 tonne bus, the drivers always looked somewhat upset about having to get their gas guzzling, expensive,self propelled tin box in the dirty water, shame!

[RJS1977]

319s are 100mph only.

 

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319%20Brochure.pdf

 

110mph is currently only certified for the latest units, 350 and 387 types.

 

I believe the Voyagers and Adelantes were the first multiple units deemed crashworthy enough to run at more than 100mph. Prior to that, for 100mph+ running, a locomotive, power car,or DVT was needed at the head of the train to provide a crumple zone.

[Northroader]

When you saw the structures going in, did you think Wehrmacht war surplus store, second hand Tiger tank gun barrels? Credit to NR to trying to save some money.

(Question to the Stationmaster re Basildon viaduct)

Edited January 19, 2016 by Northroader

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I believe the Voyagers and Adelantes were the first multiple units deemed crashworthy enough to run at more than 100mph. Prior to that, for 100mph+ running, a locomotive, power car,or DVT was needed at the head of the train to provide a crumple zone.

 Wasn't the leading (and trailing) vehicle in the APT-P a DTS?

[APOLLO]

Really - What is up with everybody ?

 

 

 

 

Get a life. (Goring residents etc). Embrace the new.

 

Brit15

[Fat Controller]

 Wasn't the leading (and trailing) vehicle in the APT-P a DTS?

It may have been, but that was pre-Polmont; after the accident at Polmont, when an Edinburgh- Glasgow train struck a herd of cows, new rules were put in place concerning the maximum speed at which passenger-carrying vehicles were allowed to be the leading vehicle of a train.

[wombatofludham]

Unlike I suspect the majority of commentators on the Goring Gap debacle, I have actually got first hand experience of trying to improve the aesthetic appearance of rail infrastructure, of trying to ensure new rail infrastructure has minimal impact on the environment in noise, vibration, landscape and appearance and have had to fight vested interests long and hard to get something half-decent. I can therefore speak harshly about the Goring Gap residents and their crusade.

 

My role on Midland Metro in the 1990s was not just Town Planning co-ordination, but noise and vibration issues, architectural, landscape and vehicle styling and disability accessibility. Basically if it didn't spark, drip oil or involve tons of concrete or steel it ended up on my desk. The project was only the second "Design-Build Operate-Maintain" (DBOM) light rail contract which the Government of the day politically was keen on, and insisted that by transferring the profit risk to the private concessionaire that they would make sure they would build something that was robust, saved money on maintenance, maximised profit but above all was cheap. The DforT would have been happy with us issuing a specification which said "Build a light rail line from Birmningham to Wolverhampton, trams to run every 6 minutes weekdays, must be accessible to wheelchairs. Ta very much" The problem with the DforT's gung ho laissez-faire attitude to design, both technical and aesthetic, was the Black Country and Birmingham were spending millions of Government money from the DoE on greening up the area, reclaiming derelict land and removing eyesores in the area, and obviously were not keen on us smashing through their recently cleaned up area with a poorly designed railway. And they were right to be concerned as the pre-tender documents from the winning consortium showed the OHLE based on Italian railways masts, catenary, and trams based on the Manchester vehicle with a low floor secition that looked like a 40 stone pie-eater had sat on the roof of a Metrolink tram. So trusting the private sector to design something that looked half decent was frankly misplaced

 

My problem was that whilst it is possible to do a performance specification for mechanical, civils and electrical engineering, no-one had done a performance specification for aesthetics. How do you measure performance in style issues? Basically we ended up trying by a mix of persuasion, some performance measures and a style guide to drag the private consortium and the Government round to our way of thinking, and whilst I can't claim it was a success in all areas (but there again, the engineers didn't manage to get the performance specification to succeed as the OHLE was technically a problem from early on and the trams were less than reliable despite using proven technology), the landscaping, style and character of the route are much better than what we could have ended up with. The wishbone Bridge in Wolverhampton was originally planned to be a plain concrete deck, the landscaping has been well received and by and large the noise and vibration and environmental impact on things like the last remaining areas of acid grassland in Sandwell (remnants of the old Sandwell Heath that colonised the old GWR when built and which remained behind long after the surrounding heathland was built on) and several badger sets were left untrammelled and wrecked by the engineers keen on getting in fast and earning money. However, aesthetics were not allowed to get in the way of function - and nor should it be. I think I proved that by and large it is possible to design well as it is to design badly, and subsequently most train builders and infrastructure builders have caught up and do now try and design something more stylish, but ultimately it has to work. And with climate change leading to increased wind events, the OHLE has to be able not only to cope with today's wind strength, but likely increased frequency and strength of wind events in the future. So, function is becoming a more pressing issue.

 

So, when it comes to the Goring Gap issue, I don't care if I come across as "sneering". I've been in the thick of it with ill informed and self-interested NIMBYs, contractors who want to do everything cheap and nasty and don't give a monkeys about that they leave behind, and politicians who think ideology is more important than leaving something behind future generations will appreciate. I've also been in the thick of it with engineers and professionals who genuinely want to do something that doesn't look awful and who are prepared to think creatively, with members of the public who genuinely listen to what you have to say and despite some reservations will make constructive and useful contributions and politicians who are informed and genuinely want to improve things other than their press profile. I'm also happy to say the latter categories are in the majority, which is why I am absolutely certain the Goring opposition group are self seeking and ill informed and clearly are only out to cause problems rather than come forward with solutions.

 

One final thing - I doubt painting the masts green will work. Bizarrely, a more neutral flat grey would be less obtrusive. Next time you are out on a rural road with streetlights, look at the lamp-posts, which are usually painted or galvanised. Then look at the back of the road signs on the opposite side of the road. They are painted a shade of grey which I believe is called "Warboys Grey". It was selected following research so as to be deliberately "invisible" to motoriosts on the other side of the road, and works in both rural and urban areas. By contrast, galvanised posts stick out because of their lighter shade - and green painted lampposts, bus shelters and street furniture, which in theory should blend in with more rural surroundings, also stick out, because in reality, the natural landscape is a complex mix of shades of green, brown and earthy tones, and paint will always look like paint in such an environment. therefore, a deliberate paint colour that is the least attention grabbing, like a flat mid to dark grey, might psychologically work better by not actively drawing attention to itself.

Edited January 20, 2016 by wombatofludham

[jjb1970]

To be honest the OH equipment doesn't look that bad to me. OK it is not particularly beautiful but it was never going to be and I really don't see that it is any more of an eye sore than alternatives.

On NIMBYs I think that is a question of balance. I do not think NIMBYs should be allowed the power of veto over major infrastructure development and I do think that it is a problem for the UK that project schedules and costs are so inflated by the approval processes. Equally, people should be allowed to voice their concerns and where concerns can be addressed with reasonable adjustments then this should be done. Unfortunately "reasonable" is a very subjective term and it is probably not as easy as it sounds to achieve a streamlined process that offers reasonable protection to those affected by developments whilst facilitating timely and cost effective development of infrastructure. I think it is easy to criticise NIMBYs when it is somebody else's backyard but I'm guessing that most of us would have an opinion if something like a waste incinerator, nuclear weapons storage facility, factory hog farm or 8 lane motorway was proposed for the other side of our garden fence. I'm not saying NIMBY-ism should be allowed to run riot or dictate what happens in the country but I do think all of us would be NIMBYs in certain scenarios and that peoples concerns should not be just dismissed.

Edited January 20, 2016 by jjb1970

[Reorte]

Get a life. (Goring residents etc). Embrace the new.

I've got a life thanks and the new just keeps making it more unappealing (as do the people who blindly leap on it and start flinging insults around at anyone unimpressed by it).

Edited January 20, 2016 by Reorte