8ft by 6ft track layout

[scoomby]

Hi All

I am just getting back into railways modelling after a 30 year break.  I used to have model railway as a child and, now that I have children, I have decided to get back into it.

I am planning a layout that is 12ft by 4ft with 3 continuous loops and gradients to allow for a single figure of eight.  This will hopefully add interest to the layout.  The gradients will be between 2% and 3% which should mean that any loco + 3 or 4 coaches can get up them.

I have already bought the baseboard and timber to support it.  To make the 12ft by 4ft, I will join together 2 x 6ft by 4ft baseboards that can be fairly easy to separate incase I need to move the layout into another room.

I have also got most of the track already although I will be fitting points and lighting along the way.  It looks like I will need a lot of point motors!  I may also add DCC in the future too.

My first draft of the track plan is shown below:

 

I may adjust the track layout around the turntable as it's looking a bit busy there!

I will post construction photos as I go if anyone is interested.

Thanks

Steve

[seahorse]

OK I will be first to jump in.

 

Rule 1 applies - if this is really what you want, then fine.

 

But there is a lot to go wrong.

 

And when it is built and electrified, how complicated is it to operate? - there are too many locations of conflict between the three circuits.

 

Start with a set of trucks or coaches in the sidings. A loco comes from the turntable and backs on. Then goes up the downhill and down the uphill ( have I got that correct?) as many times as you want. Then stop everything while it crosses to the clockwise track. runs round again, until you stop everything again to cross to the centre, again down the uphill and reverse into the siding.

 

Nothing has gone anticlockwise.

 

So repeat, but this time stop everything while you send another loco to couple on the other end of the train, and now it can go anti-clock. But stops everything again to regain the centre, and now is wrong way to back into the sidings.

 

I assume you can walk round the layout, and that you can all reach across to the centre.

 

I suggest start simply with a double track circuit. Add loops for the platforms, Add crossovers to swap from clockwise to anti-clock. Add a siding and a loco siding to the turntable. Then let the rest grow as you and your children develop your interests and skills.

 

Many people have started with something too complex and abandoned it, disillusioned, and gone to something simpler.

Cut out this stage!!

 

Best of luck.

[scoomby]

Thanks very much for your comments.  Although Rule 1 does apply, you are 100% correct.  It is too busy and I will start over.

 

Access to around the layout is possible by bringing it forward from the wall to get temporary access.  I may have to re-think this as well.

 

I just have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

 

1. What do you mean by add loops for the platforms and do you have an example?

2. And do you have an example of a siding and a loco siding to the turntable?

 

The one thing I am looking for is 3 or 4 large sidings to store coaches and wagons if possible.

 

Many thanks.

 

Steve

[seahorse]

OK you have caught me out - I do not have a ready-drawn diagram!

 

but look at a cut-down version of Plymouth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plymouth_track_diagram.png

 

Have just four tracks with two in each direction, and just one crossover at each end

Put your sidings in place of Park Sidings; put your loco depot to the right of these,

 

Now you have a layout where one operator runs two clockwise trains alternately; one runs two anti-clock trains, and one runs the sidings and loco depot, swapping trains and locos with the main lines. It can run with steam locos, diesel locos or diesel multiple units as your tastes and interests change.

 

Over time, you can develop it with a scenery, , signalling, even a branch line climbing to a high level section. The point is that it can be a long-term family project without too much work before anything can run

[Chimer]

I'm guessing this is 00 - if so, I think the gradient needed for the track leaving the sidings to clear itself after a 270 degree bend on (presumably) first radius curves will be too much for all but the gutsiest locos on very short trains.  Most people on here seem to reckon you need 10 feet minimum if the incline is straight, more on even a gentle curve.  The advice to keep it simple for starters might well include keep it flat.

[scoomby]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My layout is OO gauge and the gradients were kept low by having the 2 outer tracks and inner figure of 8 both going up and down gradients. The worst gradient was 3%.

 

However, I am binning the whole idea of gradients and I am now going for a mostly level layout.

 

I think I understand the advise I have been given. I am going to redesign with 2 continuous loops (one clockwise and one anti clockwise) and then have additional 2 tracks in the station so you can alternate 2 different trains per loop.

The add a siding that can be accessed from either loop with turntable.

Have I got this right?

I will have a redesign tomorrow.

Thanks

Steve

[L&Y]

4' is really too tight for an oval. If the curves are on show. Can you not scrape even another 6" it would help a lot. Get hold of CJ freezers plan books. There are loads on ebay for peanuts & they are full of ideas. There are quite a few for 8X4 that would benifit from a bit more space & there are some clever ideas that may help you.Take a look at the scarm thread for some more. For my money single track works best in that space.  The main thing is it pleases you. Doesn't really matter what the rest of us think in the end! Enjoy. Planning can be a lot of fun!

[scoomby]

Hi

 

I could probably fit in an 8ft by 6ft with a hole in the middle.  Would that give a better layout?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[Satan's Goldfish]

A few years ago one of the Hornby track plan books had a 12x4 plan in the middle, gradient up to a bridge, through station, terminus station, turntable, carriage sidings, all in a very simple design - out and back with a continuos loop. For the book they had made it and there was pictures of it 'finished' I'll see if I can dig it out if you'd like?

[scoomby]

Hi All

I have made another 12ft by 4ft layout (see below).  It's not 100% finished, especially around the turntable, but I think it's a layout that would be much easier to use.

I will have a go at doing an 8ft by 6ft layout shortly.

 

 

Thanks

Steve

[AngusDe]

Steve,

 

Hiya, I'd suggest that you don't need three crossings on the layout, and the facing one, using curved points, on a stretch where trains would be running relatively fast would prove to problematical (as per prototype!) 

On the same basic plan I'd have just the 2 trailing crossovers, and as using curved points isn't as  big a issue on a trailing crossing, i'd stick with the idea of keeping the full length for station. I've added a few sidings as a illustration and again I'd suggest it's more prototypical, and easier to operate, if they're also mainly in a trailing direction. This also has the benefit of removing the set track reverse curves through the crossings.

Having said all that, the 8' x 6' would be the better option I suspect!

 

Hope this helps your thought processes.

 

Angus

 

 

[AngusDe]

And a quick rehash of one of my previous ideas, re jigged for your 8'x6' area, with a operating well in the middle.

 

I've crammed a lot in, as I tend to do, but it is all just indicative, keeping the station point work on side legs allows platforms just as long as in the12'x4' ideas.

 

 

Anyway just ideas, hope they help, have fun doodling!

 

Angus 

Edited December 16, 2013 by AngusDe

[velotrain]

> "I may adjust the track layout around the turntable as it's looking a bit busy there!"

 

As opposed to where?

 

> "To make the 12ft by 4ft, I will join together 2 x 6ft by 4ft baseboards that can be fairly easy to separate incase I need to move the layout into another room."

 

Really?  You'll have the track already cut for each baseboard and connected with rail joiners across the gap?  All electrical wiring will likewise have connectors at one side of each baseboard?  No turnouts will span across the baseboards? 

 

> "Access to around the layout is possible by bringing it forward from the wall to get temporary access.  I may have to re-think this as well."

 

Indeed - unless the layout base is sturdy enough that it will all move as one, and all the legs are on casters.

 

I'm going to address this whole scheme from different perspectives than have been looked at so far, but to me are necessary before you even start to discuss trackplans.

Perhaps the first thing you need to consider is your motivation. 

 

> "I used to have model railway as a child and, now that I have children, I have decided to get back into it."

 

Are you doing this because you want your children to enjoy the same feelings that you experienced as a child?

Have you discussed this with them?  I gather most/many children nowadays have no/little interest in electronically operated things that they cannot fit in the palm of their hand.

If you're largely doing this with the hope that it will be something to share with your children, how would you feel if you discover - after you start - that they don't have any interest in it?

To what extent are you doing it for yourself, either to recapture feelings from your youth, or to experience running model trains as an adult?

 

I have an overwhelming sense that you are rushing into this way too fast.  You've got lumber and you've got track, so let's get the tools out.  You say this trackplan won't work?  OK, I'll have a new version by tomorrow.

 

Besides looking realistically at how interested/involved your children might be, it would be useful to determine just what your current and future model railway interests are.

 

When I saw the first trackplan, I had the sense that it was very much what you recalled from your youth - or ideally wanted then.  Lots of trains simultaneously running around in circles at high speeds.  See "Rule 1" above.

 

Do you have a nearby model railroad club?  Have you looked into their activities?  Been to train shows recently?  I'm in the U.S., but have gotten the impression that from pretty much anywhere in the U.K. (OK - maybe not Thurso ;-), on any given weekend, you can find a train show without excessive travel. 

 

Have you considered the possibility that the best solution might be to create one sort of layout that can be a joint enterprise between you and your children, and another one that might be more satisfying for yourself?  Perhaps even a small exhibition layout that you can bring to train shows.

 

Many adult modelers find that they prefer shunting to mindlessly (gross generalization here - nothing personal) watching trains race around small loops.  "Tabletop" layouts have largely (among serious modelers) given way to around the room designs, often requiring that any train only pass through a given scene once.  I don't recall the name of it, but if you search for industrial railways, you'll find info (and photos) on a quite nice O-scale layout that a fellow has been working on for 20 years - and still has a ways to go.  I commend his story to you because he started by thinking about what kind of railway he wanted and how he wanted to operate it - which doesn't seem to have happened here.  Perhaps it's the difference between "toy trains" and a "model railway", with all that implies - very few of the real ones run in loops.

 

Instead of being determined to start off with a 4' x 12' layout, which might well get abandoned at some point, I think you'd be much better served by sampling the wide variety of possible types of model railroad layouts, before deciding just what you want to do.  Try setting up maybe a 4' x 8' loop on the floor, and see if that is really what you want.  Perhaps also try building a small "shelf" shunting layout, to experience that side of things.  One benefit of starting with a small layout project and finishing it, is that you get to go through all the aspects - benchwork, roadbed, tracklaying, wiring, control, structures and scenery - within a limited scale, before deciding that you really want to do all those on a 4' x 12' layout of concentric loops.  You could start even smaller - say with a Gn15 micro layout(Search for Gnatterbox)  That might be a fun project to involve your children in, and if it doesn't work out, then you haven't committed yourself to a monstrous time and money eating project that you might not enjoy anyway - even if completed.

 

I'm truly not trying to dampen your enthusiasm, only suggesting that you need to put a brake on it to step back and think about just what it is that you really want.  If you are like most of us, you will make some false starts before you finally figure that out, and I'd hate to see you get discouraged by starting a huge project before you know what direction is really right for you.

 

As Rule 1 states, "if this is really what you want . . . "

[Chimer]

There isn't an icon for "sensible advice brutally put", but if there was I would have clicked it on Velotrain's post

[jon_1066]

Agreed.  There is the message and the way it is said.  Unfortunately if you take a sarcastic tone then your message may well get lost as you put the other persons back up.  

[L&Y]

Hi

 

I could probably fit in an 8ft by 6ft with a hole in the middle.  Would that give a better layout?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

 

Yes. Have a look at my plan in the Scarm thread. But please look also at CJ Freezers plans. AngusDes plan looks a lot more railway like for me. With easier curves you will have less problems with stock overhangs. And less restrictions on what you can run. With a bit less railway theres more room to model. Also if you are in the middle you can easily reach everything & the trains go out of sight from time to time so it will feel more real! But thats just my perpective. If 4' is what you got then you have to make the best of it. Better than no railway at all. I would have a shunting plank rather than a glass case full of pretty locos that never turn a wheel.

[scoomby]

Hi all

Thank you very much for all your commentaries and thank you very much to Angus for the example layouts.  I will probably do something very similar to the 8ft x 6ft layout that you have shown.  That one has a couple of circuits, space in the station for alternating trains and plenty of space for shunting.

I have been rushing this a little as I wanted to get at least one circuit and siding running for Christmas but I wasn't entirely happy with the design that I had come up with hence I posted it on here and I appreciate the feedback.

I am planning to build a baseboard that can be easily-ish to split in half to move into another room if I have to although I doubt I will actually do this.  The layout will 2 x 6ft by 4ft baseboards individually framed and 4 legs for each.  They will be bolted together and the electrics will have connections between both baseboards.  I am an engineer with an electrical background so that will not faze me.

As for the reasons for doing this?  My son who is almost 4 and is train mad.  He has a wooden train set that he plays with a lot.  We went away for a holiday in Devon in May this year and visited Pecorama, World of Countrylife (has a mini layout) and the Model Railway at Exmouth and we had big trouble pulling him away from the train layouts.  It was from that point we decided to build a family layout for us to all enjoy.  I may build a smaller separate one for my son for his Thomas trains too although that will depend if he remains interested in it.

Velotrain is right that the original layout was based on my old layout although a little larger. The 3 x circuits is what the Mrs wants on the layout.  I am going to be building the baseboards and laying track and she is going to be doing some of the scenary.  I'm trying to keep it to 2 x circuits with tunnels as it will keep it a little bit more realistic and easier to operate.  I have seen a lot of model railways on youtube, and some of them look fantastic.  I have been running a double loop layout for a couple of months that isn't pinned down on a 6ft bt 4ft board and we want to keep the loops on a larger layout.

As for train shows, I have been to train shows when I was much younger but we are regular visitors to Railways museums (Swindon & NRM York) and we have been on several preserved lines; Avon Valley Railway, South Devon Railway, West Somerset Railway, Seaton Tramway and Gwili Railway.

I know it's going to take some time to get this layout finished, probably years, but it should be fun building and tweaking it along the way.

Thanks again.

Steve

Edited December 17, 2013 by scoomby

[L&Y]

My son is only two. All he will watch on tv is Thomas. He demands it. I'm building a layout for similar reasons after a break from the hobby. My last layout was sold to make room in the nursery for an unexpected arrival... That was nearly 5 years ago. Now after 3 house moves I have the chance to start again. If my son keeps his interest he can play with me. If not I will play anyway! Let us know how you get on! And enjoy the journey.

[scoomby]

Hi all

 

I have done another layout based on the plan supplied by Angus.  It's almost the same.  I have only done a few minor tweaks and rotated it 180 degrees.  It also includes an optional siding to the side which I do have space for.

 

 

And L&Y, my son is also into Thomas.  We decorated his room almost 2 years ago with a Thomas theme!

 

Regards

Steve

[jon_1066]

What about using those sidings as a fiddle yard?  If you made them cassette connections you could have a junction and bring trains on and off scene.  This would let you run a variety of traffic on your layout without having to handle your stock.

 

eg

 

This uses Peco curved points and crossing for the junction.  I have also changed your station layout since the Up and Down sharing the center tracks looks like a good opportunity for a head on smash at full speed!  I have also used express points there since the shorter points could give you problems with running trains through them at main line speeds.

 

 

 

 

[scoomby]

Hi Jon

Thank you very much for putting that together.  The curves do look smoother so the high speed trains should run better on this.

I will hopefully get the rest of the track I need this weekend and build the track layout and test it out.  I will put some photos on here to show progress :-)

Thanks again.

Steve

[jon_1066]

Another little tinker with the plan:

 

 

This gives you some carriage sidings as well and eases one of the the station curves.  

 

It also allows you to operate it as an out and back layout.  So basic operation would be a train enters from the cassette on the Up line.  It can either terminate at the station or go round a few times as you like.  Once you have had enough of it it terminates in the station.  Decouple the loco which then runs back around the carriages and off to the TT and then onto the shed.  Meanwhile a pilot tootles out of the shed and propels the carriages towards the carriage sidings.  It then swaps onto the Down line at the cross over and shunts them into the sidings.  It then grabs a fresh set and pulls them into the station.  It then decouples and heads off to the cross over where it swaps back to the Up line and returns to the shed

 

Meanwhile a loco comes off shed and  proceeds around the Up line to the cross over where it swaps to the Down and runs around the carriages in the station.  It backs onto them then proceeds (once you've blown your whistle and waved your green flag of course).  It can zoom round the circuit a few times (whilst you bring another train in on the Up line) before heading off to the cassette.

 

Good luck with your build

[scoomby]

Hi Jon

Many thanks for the revised track plan.  It does look very good indeed.

Do you have a sharper image to hand as I can't read some of set track numbers?

Thanks again

Steve

[scoomby]

Hi All

I have some work in progress photos below.  It's been a busy Christmas and New Year but I managed to fit in some work to the layout.  The final layout is based on Jon's first plan.  The second plan is better but reduces the space for scenery so I have stayed with the first one.  A picture of the layout is below.

 

Note that nothing is pinned down but it running very well with very few derailments.  The majority of the track is Hornby set track but there are a couple of Peco points and some flexible track. There is some remaining track work left to do that will provide access to the fiddle yard.  There are also a few buildings placed roughly where they are planning to go.  The hole in the middle is going to a be green with a small lake that will be hinged to allow access.

 

The next picture shows the fiddle yard baseboard that I have just built today.

 

The legs for all of the baseboards are also shown and these have been cut to just below waist height (just under 3ft).

 

I have also put up a display cabinet :-)

 

The only question I have, is it worth painting the top of the baseboards in green or brown before putting any scenery on them?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[seahorse]

OK, as I was first to jump in on your first post, I will be first to jump in again.

Well done on getting something Done; which Works; and where you and your family can have Fun.

 

It will operate equally well with Voyagers, Thomas's or any combination.

 

It can be run single-handed, or with separate operators and a Fat Controller.

 

You can develop your skills at track, electrics,  scenery, repainting, kit building etc

 

You can gradually introduce prototype moves such as slow trains connecting with fast trains, pick-up goods, loco changing.

 

It may not last you for all time, but as and when you interests change, you will have a much firmer basis to decide what you want next.

 

A potential couple of refinements

at present I see only one link between the inner and outer tracks - I suggest a trailing crossover ( two left-hand points) either at the back, or one each side if there is room.

and could the inner sidings start further to the right to give greater length