Renaming A Duchess

[Mike70]

Good morning.

 

Last night I posted the following question in the Hornby Products & Trade Area;

 

Are there any LMS Duchess experts on this forum?

I've got two Duchess Of Sutherland, one in Crimson Lake and one in LMS Black.

The black one is R3014, which is a model of the Duchess Of Sutherland in preservation about two or thee years ago. It even has the overhead cable warning flashes.

I'd like to get it renamed as a different Duchess (as opposed to City of) and the flashes removed, so that it represents a 1940's loco, rather than a preserved loco.

The Duchess Of Sutherland was built as a conventional Duchess (I.e. not streamlined), with a blended footplate.
So that limits my choice to;

Duchess of Buccleuch
Duchess of Atholl
Duchess of Montrose
Duchess of Abercorn

But it all depends on the tender. I've seen photos and models of the Duchess of Buccleuch and the tender is clearly different to the Duchess of Sutherland.

Can anyone give me some advice about the four locos listed above? I.e. did any of them have the same tender as the Duchess of Sutherland and did they happen to wear LMS black livery?

Apologies if I've posted in the wrong forum. But I could not see anything more suitable.
 

The original topic can be found here;

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80058-duchess-experts/

 

From the replies I've received so far, Buccleuch, Atholl and Montrose all received the same LMS lined black livery as Sutherland.

 

But it still isn't clear which of them had the same tender type as Sutherland.

 

Brocp believes Montrose is the only one with the same tender as Sutherland.

 

But it would be useful if someone could confirm this.

 

Thanks in advance,

Mike.

[ScRSG]

46230 and 46231 both received different tenders in about 1945, both receiving de-streamlined tenders, so, unfortunately not the one fitted to your duchesses. Therefore it would need to be pre 1945 to use the tender supplied on the models. So you are left with 46232 - 46234 which would be ok. Sorry can't comment on the livery in LMS times only BR Green (or red) for me!

[LMS2968]

It gets complicated!

 

Running plate: 6230-34 and 6249-52 were built non-streamlined so had a continuous front running plate; 6220-6229 and 6235-6248 were built streamlined and had a front split running plate. 6253-6257 were built non-streamlined but with the split running plate from new, although it was very slightly different on 6256/57. But, just to confuse, following repiairs after the Harrow smash, 6242 re-entered traffic with a continuous front running plate.

 

Tenders: Streamlined tenders up to 6252 had higher front panel than non-streamlined tenders for 6230-34. They also had no rear running steps or handrails but had a rear ladder and twin filler holes. After destreamlining, the side panes extended a few inches behind the rear panel. The tenders for 6253-55 were non-streamlined but with the higher front panel; they were also part rivetted; those for 6256-57 were similar except for having the front panels lowered again, and had roller bearings. Unfortunately, tenders were swapped around and 6230-31 had ex-streamlined tenders from 1945 onwards. Their original tenders went to verious ex-streamlined engines, but 6249 ran with one of them in the late 1940s when still in plain black livery.

 

Livery: only 6232 and 6233 carried lined black LMS livery with non-streamlined tenders and continuous running plates.

[Mike70]

Thanks to both of you for the replies.

 

Looks like I'll be renaming the loco the Duchess Of Montrose.

 

Just a couple of more questions though.

 

1.  Footplate Lining

 

It has been pointed out that the footplate lining on the Duchess Of Sutherland model, incorrectly follows the curve of the cab, as shown here;

 

http://www.ehattons.com/images/products/R3014X_30294_Qty1_1.jpg

 

On the 2010 prototype, the footplate lining stopped short of the cab, as shown here;

 

http://www.ussalbion.co.uk/duchess300910b.jpg

 

Obviously an error on Hornby's part.  But have you ever seen any 1940's photo's of the black livery, where the footplate lining did follow the curve of the cab?

I'm just wondering if there was a logical explanation for the error.

 

2.  Nameplate Colour

 

You will notice the nameplate on the Hornby model has silver letters on a black background.

While the 2010 prototype has gold/brass lettering on a red background.

 

Have Hornby made another error?

 

Regards,

Mike.

[robmcg]

.....

 

  But have you ever seen any 1940's photo's of the black livery, where the footplate lining did follow the curve of the cab?

I'm just wondering if there was a logical explanation for the error.

 

2.  Nameplate Colour

 

You will notice the nameplate on the Hornby model has silver letters on a black background.

While the 2010 prototype has gold/brass lettering on a red background.

 

Have Hornby made another error?

 

Regards,

Mike.

 

Hi Mike, 46248 City of Leeds in c1949 British Railways black is photographed on p170 of the Irwell 'Book of Coronation Pacifics 2'  with lining on the curve of the footplate under the cab, and many others of the 6248-on versions had lining there in BR days, 6248 was the last of the streamlined-built, 6249-on being built un-streamlined and with full curved front footplates,  but with 'streamlined' tenders.  The separate lining was I think standard. But I stand to be corrected on that, for BR anyway.   6253 is shown in LMS black on p185 with a newly applied '46253' but still with LMS on tender, the cab side-sheet has a shape, and single lining, which appears to cover all of the footplate in front of and below the cab, as in, no separate band of lining under the cab-side lining... .

 

I looked at the LMS-built black 'City' series of 6249-on because apart from the tenders they may well resemble LMS-black 6232/3 ? Several other LMS-black engines show lining on cab side but no obvious separate footplate lining on that section of footplate, and in other pictures a single line is visible under the cab side-sheet-lining.  I'm sure others know chapter-and-verse about the official LMS lined black, the interim BR black version and full BR black lined version. I guess looking at photos is the best...  ; pictures of the 1948 Locomotive Exchanges are plentiful and show the early BR lining, with LMS-lettered tender or 'British Railways' black lined tenders.

 

A pic below of restored 6233 photo by Wikipaedia for comparison also, and a hand-built LMS Duchess 6234 photo by Vectis shows what might be 'right', and thirdly my BR black lined Hornby model.  Seems as if the restored 6233 may differ from at least some LMS black versions as they were c1948.

 

In any event all the best...!

I have No idea about nameplate colouring, as my photos are b+w., but I think silver over black, or brass over black is most likely.  

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2013 by robmcg

[69843]

A history of (4)6232 Duchess of Montrose can be found here:

http://lmsforum.forumup.co.uk/about543-0-lmsforum.html

 

EDIT: I believe 6232 was one of, if not the only loco in the class not painted black during the war

Edited December 23, 2013 by 69843

[robmcg]

Irwell's 'Book of..'  lists 6230/2/3/4 as not being black right through from construction in LMS maroon to 1946-7 (which isn't to say it didn't happen) and 6231 was painted 'plain' black in 9/45 so all 5 of this batch qualify.  Irwell do make a point of saying that their records are not always gospel!

 

as in this quote from the history to which you kindly gave a link;

 

>>There is a footnote to the effect that she PROBABLY received the LMS 1946 Black livery with straw /maroon lining, as currently worn by 6233. Irwell Press's 'Book of the Coronation Pacifics' Gives LMS Black in Sept 1947 (she had a Light Overhaul ending 30/8/47). It also states LMS wartime black (unlined) from Feb 45 (a Heavy General ended 24/2/45).<<

 

LMS wartime black from 2/45 is not recorded in the main table, but could mean, basically, that we don't know! <g> Seems plausible...

Edited December 23, 2013 by robmcg

[Mike70]

Thanks again Robbie. The link to the LMS forum makes very interesting reading.

 

I also like seeing your photos in these threads.

They look great.

 

Might have to get my locos weathered one day.

[leander22b]

The wild swan photographic accompaniment to LMS Profile No 11 gives Montrose as being in LMS lined black from 3rd May 1948 to 21st May 1948 albeit with BR number at which point she was repainted experimental dark blue. However the Irwell book of the coronations show she had a general overhaul from 1st March - 3rd May 1948 with a further time in works 7th - 21st May 1948 (reason not given), which suggests she may have never have actually run in lined black.With regard to nameplates I understood they were supposed to be lake with straw lettering but that the shed staff tended to remove the paint from the lettering to leave them polished.

Hope that helps.

Phil

Edited December 24, 2013 by leander22b

[LMS2968]

I believe that this engine was finished in LMS 1946 lined black (but BR numbers and tender lettering) but immediately re-entered the paintshop to be turned out in BR blue livery. There is a photo on page 18 of Irwell's 'Book of.. Mk2' showing 6224 painted black with another, almost certainly 6232, behind - brand new fresh off. Their summary of the EHC shows 1/3/48 - 3/5/48 Heavy General, then 7/5/48 - 21/5/48 No Repair. Their livery table shows, '5/48 LMS lined black, and 5/48BR experimental blue.

 

The nameplates were, like most others, cast brass but originally the lettering and borders were chromium plated. At some point, the chrome was removed (or flaked off, then had to be removed) but I don't know a date for this. Background colours tended to vary between black, vermillion and, north of the border, blue. It can be very difficult to distinguish between red and black on B and W photos, however.

[jwoch]

The finish on the lettering and border of the nameplates is more coincidental than intentional. The nameplates were originally chrome plated across the whole face. As the locos got older the chrome wore away due to normal wear and tear and cleaning, so that eventually they showed the brass finish. It certainly didn't "flake off" as a previous post suggests. If you examine an original nameplate very closely, the chrome plating  is still under the painted background and in some cases around the edges.