Aberdeen to London Sleepers 1950/60's

[Aberbrothock]

Hi All fellow sufferers

 

As an avid modeller of the D & A Joint line, specifically Arbroath station and its immediate environs, I wonder if anyone can help with the make-up/consist of the London Sleeper trains in the 50/60s.

I did travel on them at the time but didn't take notes on the make up of the train.....

My current representation is A2, (A H Peppercorn), Thomson full brake,one 1st class sleeper, 5 2nd class sleepers, and one Gresley 1st sleeper.

Is this basically correct?

If I don't hear anything, I may not sleep tonight!

 

Hopeful Traveller

 

 

[Flood]

The summer 1958 Carriage working has the 7.05pm Aberdeen - London as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BG, CK*, SK*, CK*, 2 SK*, BSK, 2 SK*, SLF, SLSTP, BG (* Mk1 stock, all other stock LNE)

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BG, CK*, SK*, 2 SK, CK*, 2 SK*, BSK, 2 SK*, SLF, SLS, BG (*Mk1 stock, all other stock LNE)

 

the LNE BSK is 4 compartment, the LNE SKs are 7 compartment

 

 

and the Aberdonian (8.35pm Aberdeen - London) as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BZ, (SLF SLF), SLF, SLS, 3 SLSTP, SLS, BG, BZ

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BSK, CK, 3 SK, SLF, 4 SLSTP, SLS, BG

 

All LNE stock, (SLF SLF) is a twin set. BSK is 4 compartment, CK is 3-3 compartment, SKs are 7 compartment

_____________________________________________________

 

The winter 1960/61 Carriage working has the Aberdonian (7.30pm Aberdeen - London) as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BSK, RU, BG, CK, 4 SK, SLSTP, SLF, BG, BZ, CCT (BSK and RU Aberdeen to Edinburgh only)

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BSK, RU, BG, CK, 2 SK, SLSTP, 3 SLF, SLSTP, BG (BSK and RU Aberdeen to Edinburgh only)

 

All Mk1 stock except the leading BG

____________________________________________________________

 

The summer 1963 Carriage working has the 7.15pm Aberdeen - London as:

 

Loco; CK, SK, BSK, SK, CK, 2 SK, BG, SLF, 2 SLSTP, BG (All Mk1 stock except the leading BG)

 

and the Aberdonian (8.20pm Aberdeen - London) as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BG, 3 SLF, 4 SLSTP, SLF, SLSTP, BG (All Mk1 stock except the leading BG)

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BSK, 3 SK, CK, SLF, 5 SLSTP,  BG (All Mk1 stock except the BSK which is a Thompson 4 compartment)

 

SLF = Sleeper First, SLSTP = Sleeper Pantry Second, SLS = Sleeper Second, SK = Second Compartment, CK = Composite Compartment, BSK = Brake Second Compartment, BG = Gangwayed brake van, BZ = 6 wheel non gangwayed brake van, RU = Restaurant Unclassified (19xx series)

[Aberbrothock]

The summer 1958 Carriage working has the 7.05pm Aberdeen - London as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BG, CK*, SK*, CK*, 2 SK*, BSK, 2 SK*, SLF, SLSTP, BG (* Mk1 stock, all other stock LNE)

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BG, CK*, SK*, 2 SK, CK*, 2 SK*, BSK, 2 SK*, SLF, SLS, BG (*Mk1 stock, all other stock LNE)

 

the LNE BSK is 4 compartment, the LNE SKs are 7 compartment

 

 

and the Aberdonian (8.35pm Aberdeen - London) as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BZ, (SLF SLF), SLF, SLS, 3 SLSTP, SLS, BG, BZ

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BSK, CK, 3 SK, SLF, 4 SLSTP, SLS, BG

 

All LNE stock, (SLF SLF) is a twin set. BSK is 4 compartment, CK is 3-3 compartment, SKs are 7 compartment

_____________________________________________________

 

The winter 1960/61 Carriage working has the Aberdonian (7.30pm Aberdeen - London) as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BSK, RU, BG, CK, 4 SK, SLSTP, SLF, BG, BZ, CCT (BSK and RU Aberdeen to Edinburgh only)

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BSK, RU, BG, CK, 2 SK, SLSTP, 3 SLF, SLSTP, BG (BSK and RU Aberdeen to Edinburgh only)

 

All Mk1 stock except the leading BG

____________________________________________________________

 

The summer 1963 Carriage working has the 7.15pm Aberdeen - London as:

 

Loco; CK, SK, BSK, SK, CK, 2 SK, BG, SLF, 2 SLSTP, BG (All Mk1 stock except the leading BG)

 

and the Aberdonian (8.20pm Aberdeen - London) as:

 

Saturdays Excepted: Loco; BG, 3 SLF, 4 SLSTP, SLF, SLSTP, BG (All Mk1 stock except the leading BG)

 

Saturdays Only: Loco; BSK, 3 SK, CK, SLF, 5 SLSTP,  BG (All Mk1 stock except the BSK which is a Thompson 4 compartment)

 

SLF = Sleeper First, SLSTP = Sleeper Pantry Second, SLS = Sleeper Second, SK = Second Compartment, CK = Composite Compartment, BSK = Brake Second Compartment, BG = Gangwayed brake van, BZ = 6 wheel non gangwayed brake van, RU = Restaurant Unclassified (19xx series)

Many thanks for the detailed info. - I only wish I had the room for 12 coach trains!

[LNER4479]

Hi there,

 

No reason to doubt info supplied for one moment. Just to add therefore that, according to my treasured June 1955 Bradshaws, the service conveyed catering accommodation from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, for service of evening meals. It was detached at Edinburgh (almost certainly along with the locomotive). Furthermore, there is a picture of 60532 (no less) departing Aberdeen with the 'Aberdonian' on 25.6.57 (complete with headboard) and there behind the tender are indeed the catering vehicles (I can PM it to you if you like). And not just any vehicles but a former catering twin from one of the pre-war streamlined Coronation sets no less! Apparent this was based at Aberdeen at the time for this working. Interestingly, the corresponding northbound Aberdonian does not show any catering accommodation, presumably as it arrived in Aberdeen too early, so the catering vehicles must have worked back to Aberdeen on another train (unless they were in fact based in Edinburgh and worked out on an afternoon train? Certainly a more civilised arrangement for the catering crew!).

 

Interesting to note, therefore, in Flood's excellent information, that the winter 60/61 schedule has a BSK RU (Restaurant Unclassified) behind the loco leaving Aberdeen, which are stated as coming off the train at Edinburgh. In the steam era, attachment/detachment of catering vehicles at the beginning/end of overnight services was fairly common practice - I have seen pictures of West Coast sleepers approaching the end of their journey at London with an LMS catering vehicle behind the tender, almost certainly attached with loco at Crewe.

 

It is possible that the lack of separate catering vehicles in Flood's summer 1958 workings was a high summer only arrangement (the summer timetable not starting until July); in which case, on your model, you could assemble a more interesting(?) looking formation to represent the train as:

Loco - Buffet (Gresley)-BG-CK-SK-SL(F)-SL(S)-SL(S)-BSK(or BG)

 

You will note from Flood's information that the services were a mix of sleeper and day coach accommodation - not everyone could (or wanted to) afford the sleeper supplement. I used to 'doss down' in day coach accommodation on overnight trains when I first started travelling around the country by train (the old compartment coaches were obviously much more preferable for this than the open vehicles!)

[Flood]

As with any official document the rakes stated are those that should be used if the stock is available.

 

Using some LNE sleeper stock in the 1960/61 consists, and probably also those for 1963, would add some variation and may well have occurred on an as required basis. The same goes for the day coach stock with either non Mk 1 stock or perhaps an SK and BG instead of a BSK being used.

 

With regard to the catering vehicles the same sort of arrangement (using an RMB) was still in use in 1981.

 

The winter 1957/58 Carriage Working states the 7.5 pm from Aberdeen as BSO, RS, 2 SK, CK, BSK, SLC (Twin), BZ. The BSO and RS worked to Edinburgh, the SLC (Twin) had 9 first class berths and 28 second class. There was also an all sleeper rake departing 8.35 pm: BZ, SLF (Twin), SLF (Twin), SLC, SLF, 2 SLSTP, BG, BZ, CCT

 

4479's representative rake looks to be a good compromise for the mixed rake and you may also want to run a shortened all sleeper rake for interest as well.

[Aberbrothock]

As with any official document the rakes stated are those that should be used if the stock is available.

 

Using some LNE sleeper stock in the 1960/61 consists, and probably also those for 1963, would add some variation and may well have occurred on an as required basis. The same goes for the day coach stock with either non Mk 1 stock or perhaps an SK and BG instead of a BSK being used.

 

With regard to the catering vehicles the same sort of arrangement (using an RMB) was still in use in 1981.

 

The winter 1957/58 Carriage Working states the 7.5 pm from Aberdeen as BSO, RS, 2 SK, CK, BSK, SLC (Twin), BZ. The BSO and RS worked to Edinburgh, the SLC (Twin) had 9 first class berths and 28 second class. There was also an all sleeper rake departing 8.35 pm: BZ, SLF (Twin), SLF (Twin), SLC, SLF, 2 SLSTP, BG, BZ, CCT

 

4479's representative rake looks to be a good compromise for the mixed rake and you may also want to run a shortened all sleeper rake for interest as well.

Thanks for all your info. - I had the feeling that I should include a couple of "ordinary," coaches, and so I could remove one or two SLSTP's and substitute a CK and a BSK, plus a CCT to allow for Guard's accommodation at each end and extra luggage capacity. I wonder how many skinflint 1st class passengers were around who would use a "day," coach rather than stump up the Sleeper supplement, which in the 1960's wasn't a huge amount......