Simond Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi Ozzy, you make a good point, and there is no harm in having this capability, however, I haven't had a DC/Analog controller for as long as I can remember. The Greater Windowledge has only got DCC, and when I build a loco, I run the chassis on DC direct from my power supply just to make sure nothing binds (it does tend to go like the clappers, but only for a few seconds each way) before I put the chip in. Of course, Lenz controllers will operate a non-chipped loco too, but I am always a bit wary of this, as the motor is "working" whenever it's on DCC, even if the loco isn't moving. This does tend to heat motors up, and I tend to have coreless motors which are a little more fragile than an XO4. If Martyn has a DC controller, the easy way to do what you suggest is to switch the entire layout across to it, (ensuring that the DCC outputs are isolated from it) and then do the running in. The rest of the DCC equipped locos will have to be isolated or lifted off, or they'll trundle around, of course. An alternative would be to have the main circuit as a separate power district, as you suggest, and then this could be switched between DC and DCC to allow the other locos to stay put on the DCC zones. My point regarding isolation was if Martyn was going to have visitors, he might want to allow a couple of locations where a non-chipped loco can be "parked" without whistling and getting its motor all hot & bothered. If Martyn feels he needs this, I can easily incorporate it in the switch list when I get round to it. best Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 there's also the question of a programming track - Martyn where would you like this? Siding in the station at the front, or the front road through the storage yard? best simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Maybe just add a free length of track on the inside of the fiddly yard for that. Or Martyn could just build another point for that. A lot of people make it so that they can "drive" locos on or off it but can then switch it on or off as the programming track. OzzyO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi Guys, Hmmm, lots of interesting choices to mull over. Regarding a program track, maybe the inner siding in the storage yard would be ideal ? As for a switchable DC/DCC layout, does this involve much more wiring ? I am still the proud owner of an ancient H&M controller so I suppose this could be used for running in or any visiting locos . ATB, Martyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Martyn It's all easy... Programming track, inner road of the storage yard, yes, we can do that. My layout has one siding which can be switched from normal to programming, which is much more convenient than lifting locos on & off. Running in using analog - I'd suggest that if you want to use your H&M, we arrange that the circuit can be switched between DC & DCC whilst leaving the rest of the layout on DCC, so you don't have to lift stock off. It's only a matter of adding a DPDT switch and a couple of wires. Just very visibly discovered the limits of my knowledge, my daughter wants to know how a transistor works... I'm travelling the rest of the week - I'll hopefully have time to do the switch list before the weekend, but I want to check the compounds first. Watch this space. Best Simon Edited January 13, 2015 by Simond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi Simon, Thanks for all the advice, I am just building the second baseboard at the moment which will be for the platform area so there is no rush at the moment. I have wired the fiddle yard already and installed the point motors and all seems to work at present, but in a very basic form. Have a good trip and hopefully have a catch up at the weekend. ATB, Martyn. PS, What's a transistor ? Ahh I remember it was something I use to listen to Radio Luxembourg with . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 14, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2015 I tend to use the rolling road for DC testing most of the time. A stretch of track with a turnout in it would be handy by the work bench. If you have the DCC layout divided into a few power districts it would be fairly simple to switch one of them to DC control for testing. Since many DCC locos will detect DC and move accordingly you would want to switch a whole fiddleyard with locos in it over to DC to test your latest build. How do a transistor work? well the more I learnt the more involved the explanations got especially when getting to the level of valency shells, quantum mechanics and schroders bloody cat. Possibly the simplist is as follows; The transister has three connections the collector base and emitter. There is a barrier to current flow between the collector and the emitter but passing a small current between the base and the emitter allows a larger current to flow bewtween the collector and the emitter. The larger the base emitter current the greater the collector emitter current. This efect is caused by small amounts of impurities in the base material at these points. If she wants more than that you need to understand what level of understanding is needed from and electronics user to an subatomic physicist. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Thanks Don, Yes, we were into the gap between doping and the damn cat... The limits of my knowledge were somewhere in the "it acts as an amplifier by controlling that current in proportion to this one" area - trouble is, she kept asking "why?"... I suggested she ask one of her Physics teachers, embarrassed that I couldn't completely support her Engineering homework. Best Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Transistor: poor cousin to the delightful thermionic triode... Love my high-voltage valve audio; not anywhere near as enthusiastic about silicon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 ah, room heaters... very nice, always promised I'd buy or build one to play my guitar through, but the guitar is a million times better than the idiot wielding it, and the Laney I have works... When I win the lottery... Back to trains! Martyn please have a look at the wiring diagrams and let me know if they make sense as they are - there's a single and double compound, which I think covers your requirements. I prepared them some years ago for a tentative book I was going to do on layout wiring... If i makes sense, please let me know and, I'll update the annotated plan to show the programming track and do a switch list for the frogs and you should be all set. (fingers firmly crossed). Either way, shout up! The assumption is that the blades at each end of the double are all driven by the same motor - I have done this using a pair of "balance bars" and Tortoises which ensured that both sets of blades always closed onto the stock rails, both ways - it was not very prototypical in appearance, so you might want to consider hiding it all under the baseboard - but in any case, you only need the one motor at each end, and one switch at each end, to control the polarity of the crossing at the other end. I wonder how they arranged it on the real thing, two levers I assume - I'm sure someone knows better? ANYWAY, the diagrams show the path of the train in green arrows and the tiebar position with thin black ones. © Simon Dobson 2015 © Simon Dobson 2015 all the best Simon PS, Steve - please post up, or send me, a copy of the "BOX" file for Ranelagh Bridge and I'll mark up feeds & returns for you - I'm travelling next week and will have some evenings in a hotel OMO so it will be a welcome diversion! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Thanks, I will email my freind who did the templot plans and see if he can send it to me. All I have is what I popped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2015 The normal way of working a double slip would be to have a single lever to work the four blades at one end and the blades of an associated point, a second lever to work the four blades at the other end with any associated point that end. Take a typical case of a double track main with a double slip in the up. A trailing point on the down connects to the slip and the other side the cross line could go to a bay or a loop with either another turnout or a trap (to protect the main). Lever I reverses the down point and the slip points to facilitate a crossover down to main or vice versa Lever 2 revers the slip baldes (and the trap or turnout) to allow a train to pass from the up main to the bay/loop Reversing levers 1 &2 allows a departure from the bay/loop onto the down main or a backing move from the down into the bay/loop both levers normal allows normal up and down movement. Very simple with just two levers or possibly another for an FPL very simple for the signalman Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2015 See also this old page of mine: http://templot.com/info/slips.htm Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Hi Simon, Martin, Thank you for the diagrams these are now stored away for when I will need them. I am fairly " comfortable " with the wiring for the slips, I will just need to make sure I have the rail breaks in the correct places, I think I was worrying to much being that this is my first DCC layout. I have managed to wire the storage yard successfully up to now, the only problem I had there was a dry joint on one of the point motor terminals but I got there in the end. My track plan through the station is exactly the same as Martin's diagram regarding the crossover with the single slip and the adjoining spur. Simon would it be possible to interlock this crossover with the spur? electronically I mean, just a thought. All the best, Martyn. Edited January 18, 2015 by 3 link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi Martyn Interconnection is very possible - I recall you are planning to use Tortoises, and given their low consumption, I would simply wire the two motors in parallel. You'll do this twice, for 15 (a & b) and 10 (a & b) using Martin's numbers. I did arrange a crossover on one layout using a rocking beam under the layout. It worked reliably, and saved the cost of one motor, but was a complete PITA to set up, so I don't recommend it! Interlocking would mean that you could only pull off 15 if 10 were already across. Probably the easiest way to arrange this would be to use one of the switches in the motors of 10 - I'll have a think about it. Best Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Thank you Simon it's most appreciated. Martyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The smiley wearing shades is of course a "b" followed by a right bracket! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi Simon, Martin, Thank you for the diagrams these are now stored away for when I will need them. I am fairly " comfortable " with the wiring for the slips, I will just need to make sure I have the rail breaks in the correct places, I think I was worrying to much being that this is my first DCC layout. I have managed to wire the storage yard successfully up to now, the only problem I had there was a dry joint on one of the point motor terminals but I got there in the end. My track plan through the station is exactly the same as Martin's diagram regarding the crossover with the single slip and the adjoining spur. Simon would it be possible to interlock this crossover with the spur? electronically I mean, just a thought. All the best, Martyn. It is quite simple to do. One solution is to wire the feed to the sput turnout (15) through the second set of Tortoise contacts on the crossover (10) so that unless 10 is reversed the feed will not operate 15 when the lever is thrown. Admittedly this doesn't stop you throwing the lever unlike 'proper interlocking' but it does protect movements. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Not so fast, Moriarty! wiring the feed to the motors 15 through the spare switch on one of the motors 10, is as you say, easy to wire, but if you do, I'm 99% sure that there will be a situation where the second set of tortoises are not powered - thus the point blades may not be hard home against the stock rails, which may lead to derailments. Might be possible to get round this by using a spring to keep the blades of 15 in the "normal" position and only use the tortoise to reverse them, but it sort-of defeats the object of a tortoise. I also thought about using both of the spare switches, but this ends up with a situation where the motors 15 operate whenever 10 is pulled or reversed, but they only go to a "sensible" solution if 15 is pulled too. This didn't seem like a satisfying solution either, so more thought required. I'm flying to Mumbai tonight so I'll have plenty of time to sketch... I suspect diodes or a relay are indicated. There was a sketch, maybe in Freezer's book on signalling, in which he had a "flag" soldered to the switch lever, so it could only move if the adjacent one had already moved - this would work, if only 10 were next to 15... If Martyn is going to have a "proper" frame, (SSS or Modratec) then the interlocking can be mechanical - otherwise some electric/electronic solutions are indicated. I did start work on an Arduino-based solution, using servos for points and signals, but I have not got very far with it. Using software, interlocking is very easy. best Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2015 If you are using a split supply you place the extra contacts in 10 to act as a make contact in the appropriate feed to the swtch for 15 so it has supply set normal but only has a supply to reverse if 10 is thrown. Actually it is easier to do this with the switch. Tortoises only need a single pole switch if used with split supply so a DPDT leaves a spare set of contacts which can be used. Admittedly done this way if you reverse 15 when 10 is not thrown the contacts may slaken a little but will not throw over, restore 15 and they will tighten against the stock rail. Thinking a little more you could use the c/o contacts to switch the connection to 15 switch so both ways it was held normal until 15 was thrown. I can do diagrams if anyone is interested. There are some other interesting ways of connecting up Tortoises Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Thanks Don, I was thinking about split potential, this route would indeed allow "hard over" and "half hard over" - I suppose it depends on how Martyn wants to operate the motors and the kind of switching he will use. Best Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Good Evening Gentlemen, I'm afraid I fell at the first hurdle, all this talk of diodes and mechanical locking . I intend to use the Scalefour lever frames which have locating tabs to fit micro switches to them, which will in turn switch the turnouts. Tortoises for turnouts and Servo's for signals hopefully. I will need to keep this electrickery side of things as simple as possible, or if not I will have to go and kidnap Simon from the Garden of England and keep him locked in my play den until the final blob of solder has cooled down . ATB, Martyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2015 Martyn when you get to the stage of connectiong the frame and the tortoises up I will send you a diagram. No point in doing it now things often change! BTW will you be at Bristol on Sunday? Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Martyn, How will you operate the servos? You need a "something" between microswitch and servo, to control positions, speed, bounce, etc. MERG offer a suitable controller, Arduino is another option, and there is the Peco and at least one other commercial offering. If you have not yet bought your Tortoises, you'll probably find a servo solution for your points to be cheaper. I'd guess around £3 per servo, plus the cost of an Arduino clone, less than a fiver, plus micro switches, 50p, plus time and hassle. And if you go this route, it needs at least some programming - but full interlocking between signals & points is possible. It's possibly a project in its own right, however! Best Simon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This site has a lot of interesting gear on it. http://www.technobotsonline.com/ HTH OzzyO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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