Too Contrived - Using a Road-Over Bridge As A Tunnel Entrance?

[steveNCB7754]

Can I pick a few brains here, over an idea I have to get a branch-line off a proposed layout through the back scene? Hope this is the right forum, as I realise that, in a way, this also contains a prototype query but bear with me.

 

I have space for a quite narrow layout, which is basically a single through mineral/goods line (fiddle yards at each end) but with a single-line branch off it, to get to an off-scene (and un-seen) quarry and/or wagon repair works (located in the Mendips, if it makes any difference). The branch however, due to the lack of depth, would have to exit via the back scene, in order to then gain access to one of the fiddle yards. As with most layouts, the quandary is how to get the ends of the goods line and the quarry branch, to enter/exit the scene discretely.

 

For the main goods line, I propose to use a cutting at one end, with a stone road-over bridge at the other -  no problems there. The intention, is that this road then meets another road running along the rear of the layout near the back-scene, at a 'T' junction. My problem, is with how the branch to the quarry will then exit the layout, via the back scene. Another road-over bridge here seems overkill in a relatively small space, but my other solution (as there is no room for yet another cutting) - a tunnel mouth (hill behind), but with the road passing above the entrance much like a bridge, seems unlikely (prototypically) and perhaps somewhat contrived.

 

So I guess my questions are; i) Are there/were there any examples of this latter configuration in the real world,  ii) Should I just loose the rear road (at that point at least) and just go with a conventional tunnel?

 

I realise that as a freelance model, I am 'free' to do what I please, but I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts

 

Regards

 

Steve N

[Chimer]

Can't give you any real-world example, but I would think if the branch goes under the road at a shallow angle (i.e. on the skew) it should look OK.

 

And of course the end of the branch can be a quarry one day and a wagon works the next ........

[APOLLO]

Gate and large overhanging trees ?

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not sure that I can find an example either, although I think there must be some. Certainly cases where tunnel mouth is very close to a road overbridge.

[steveNCB7754]

Can't give you any real-world example, but I would think if the branch goes under the road at a shallow angle (i.e. on the skew) it should look OK.

 

And of course the end of the branch can be a quarry one day and a wagon works the next ........

 

 

Yes, on the skew would be better from a 'masking' point of view.  In addition, a bridge of that sort would be almost as discrete as a tunnel.

 

Thanks Chimer.

 

 

Steve N

[steveNCB7754]

Gate and large overhanging trees ?

 

Not sure I want a gate to worry about, but the trees suggestion is valid.  The simplest solution may be to obscure the branch's exit through the back-scene entirely, with trees, bushes, etc.

 

Thanks Apollo.

 

Steve N

[TheSignalEngineer]

Several I can think of where the road is very adjacent to the tunnel mouth, but mainly built-up areas..

Euston end of Kensal Green, station building is on top of the mouth.

Kidsgrove end of Harecastle Tunnel

Wednesfield Tunnel has a road at one end and canal at the other

Suffolk St tunnel at New St

New St South Tunnels, station end

Primrose Hill, both ends

The New Mills end of the disused Hayfield branch.

North end of Marple North Tunnel

West end of Woodhead Tunnel

[steveNCB7754]

I'm not sure that I can find an example either, although I think there must be some. Certainly cases where tunnel mouth is very close to a road overbridge.

 

Yes, that would work, if you have the room (otherwise it might look a bit crowded).  Likewise, I'm sure I have also seen an example of a layout where, although there is a bridge forming a scenic break, there is still some short section of (3D) scenery beyond (seen only through the bridge arch/opening), whilst the main (2D) back-scene itself comes down to the bridge parapet (if that makes sense).  Not sure I found that too convincing though and probably works better on the rear of a layout, than at the ends.

 

Thanks

Steve N

[jamie92208]

Morley station has a road overbridge attached to the tunnel mouth at the west end of the platforms.  Funnilu enough a colliery railway used to climb up the south side of the valley before going along the hillside abopve the tunnel mouth before crossing the station approach road.   You can still see some of the remains of the colliery line.

 

Jamie

[steveNCB7754]

Several I can think of where the road is very adjacent to the tunnel mouth, but mainly built-up areas..

 

Thanks TheSignalEngineer.  Some good examples there, but as you say, mainly in built-up areas.  Just goes to show though, that nothing is out of the question.

 

Steve N

[steveNCB7754]

Morley station has a road overbridge attached to the tunnel mouth at the west end of the platforms.  Funnilu enough a colliery railway used to climb up the south side of the valley before going along the hillside abopve the tunnel mouth before crossing the station approach road.   You can still see some of the remains of the colliery line.

 

Jamie

 

Now that is a good example, in fact having seen one or two now, it does not seem quite so strange a configuration as I first thought.

 

Thanks Jamie.

[jamie92208]

Now that is a good example, in fact having seen one or two now, it does not seem quite so strange a configuration as I first thought.

 

Thanks Jamie.

Funnily enough the colliery tramway served two collieries, one on the left at the top of the bank (South side of the main line) and the other via the tramway i mentioned about 1/2 a mile away on the north side of the valley.

 

Jamie

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Look at the relief around Okehampton station on a hillside on the line to Meldon quarry. If the line has been built on a natural, or partly or wholly cut out, ledge or terrace into the hillside from which the quarried material is drawn; it's not too improbable that a road route preceeding the railway would have run on a natural ledge, and the railway then run parallel on a slightly lower enlarged terrace.

 

Another good location to look at is the Isle of Wight. Ventnor station is a cracker, located in a cut straight into the chalk with a near vertical wall.

[edcayton]

Look at the relief around Okehampton station on a hillside on the line to Meldon quarry. If the line has been built on a natural, or partly or wholly cut out, ledge or terrace into the hillside from which the quarried material is drawn; it's not too improbable that a road route preceeding the railway would have run on a natural ledge, and the railway then run parallel on a slightly lower enlarged terrace.

 

Another good location to look at is the Isle of Wight. Ventnor station is a cracker, located in a cut straight into the chalk with a near vertical wall.

 

In fact the reverse has happened. The new A30 is parallel to the line and then crosses it on a skew bridge before turning away.

 

I had Chipping Norton in mind, where the road bridge is 100 yards or so from the tunnel mouth.

 

Ed

[steveNCB7754]

Look at the relief around Okehampton station on a hillside on the line to Meldon quarry. If the line has been built on a natural, or partly or wholly cut out, ledge or terrace into the hillside from which the quarried material is drawn; it's not too improbable that a road route preceeding the railway would have run on a natural ledge, and the railway then run parallel on a slightly lower enlarged terrace.

 

Another good location to look at is the Isle of Wight. Ventnor station is a cracker, located in a cut straight into the chalk with a near vertical wall.

 

Yes, I see what you mean.  Actually, I've just looked at the bridge under the station lines at Oakhampton, the one near the entrance (isn't Google Earth a wonderful thing?).  Presumably the station was widened from that as built -  you go through an (original?) short,  narrow stone-arched 'tunnel'/bridge, but now there is another bridge built immediately on the other side of it, but that is a wider, flat girder example.

 

Thanks,

Steve N

[steveNCB7754]

In fact the reverse has happened. The new A30 is parallel to the line and then crosses it on a skew bridge before turning away.

 

I had Chipping Norton in mind, where the road bridge is 100 yards or so from the tunnel mouth.

 

Ed

 

Thanks Ed.  Chipping Norton is another classic example, but as I said to Joseph_Pestel above, that form needs a bit more room than I have got.

 

Steve N

[Mark Forrest]

Are there any buildings (or other structures) you can use as a view blocker rather than using a bridge/tunnel?

[steveNCB7754]

Are there any buildings (or other structures) you can use as a view blocker rather than using a bridge/tunnel?

 

Hi Mark,

 

Well this is all at the planning stage you understand and whilst initially based on the photograph of a prototype location, the branch (at that point anyway) is something I've added for operational interest.  The scene is open countryside, partially on an embankment, so scope for a sizable structure (that itself would not look contrived) is limited.  As I said in a reply above, I suppose some topography and trees could be used to disguise the branch exit just as well.

 

Thanks fo your suggestion,

Steve N

[DCB]

Roads crossing over a tunnel very near the tunnel mouth, Sapperton short tunnell is in open countryside and os like this as is the short tunnel on Bincombe bank out of Weymouth spring to mind, the road crosses above the tunnel mouth on Bincombe bank turns 180 degrees and come back under the line a matter of a few yards south.  the Kemble station end of Kemble Tunnel must be similar.   A skew bridge would be a good way for the track to exit the layout, but remember that most roads were in place before the railways came and railway companies took great pains to accommodate the roads and footpaths without diverting them, this can lead to apparently ludicrous arrangements of two or more road bridges within just a few yards where diverting the road a few road yards would have saved the need for at least one bridge.  The junctions south of Honeybourne OWWR are particularly strange when seen for the first time.

[ForestPines]

I'm aware of two locations with a road running across the top of a tunnel mouth without a separate bridge, but both are in urban areas: Pump Lane, Bristol (on the harbour railway) and Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh (on the Edinburgh & Dalkeith).

[steveNCB7754]

Roads crossing over a tunnel very near the tunnel mouth, Sapperton short tunnell is in open countryside and os like this as is the short tunnel on Bincombe bank out of Weymouth spring to mind, the road crosses above the tunnel mouth on Bincombe bank turns 180 degrees and come back under the line a matter of a few yards south.  the Kemble station end of Kemble Tunnel must be similar.   A skew bridge would be a good way for the track to exit the layout, but remember that most roads were in place before the railways came and railway companies took great pains to accommodate the roads and footpaths without diverting them, this can lead to apparently ludicrous arrangements of two or more road bridges within just a few yards where diverting the road a few road yards would have saved the need for at least one bridge.  The junctions south of Honeybourne OWWR are particularly strange when seen for the first time.

 

Hi David,

 

You raise some good points, especially about remembering that the roads were usually there first.  That's one of the tricky parts of modelling scenery -  making it look like the railway was an addition to existing topography and infrastructure, rather than the other way round.  Must get my Barry Norman book out again.

 

Thanks

Steve N

[steveNCB7754]

I'm aware of two locations with a road running across the top of a tunnel mouth without a separate bridge, but both are in urban areas: Pump Lane, Bristol (on the harbour railway) and Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh (on the Edinburgh & Dalkeith).

 

Hi ForestPines,

 

Yes, seems to be a popular solution in urban settings.  Thanks for the info.

 

Steve N

[maunsel]

Nothing new here, but I used this for my micro layout called Pencraig Yard.

 

 

 

 

 

Eric

Derby

UK

[Anglian]

Chipping Norton was in my mind as well.

 

You could check out some of Ian Rice's ideas. Depending on the height you will be viewing the layout at you may find that a well placed building provides a good enough sight block to enable trains to depart from the visible scene

[steveNCB7754]

Nothing new here, but I used this for my micro layout called Pencraig Yard.

 

 

Pencraig Yard1.jpg

 

 

 

Eric

Derby

UK

 

Indeed, very effective.

 

Thanks

Steve N