ZTC258 decoder...tell us what you think - how does it compare.?

[250BOB]

Hi Guys,

Just curious as to how the ZTC258 decoder stacks up against other makes.....Lenz, Hornby, Bachmann, TCS, DCC Supplies etc.,

 

Where does it put itself price wise etc.,

 

My memory of ZTC and its decoders in particular were poor......but that is going back about 5 or 6 years ago.  Since then I have steered clear of them, and some others for that matter.    I now prefer to use the Lenz decoders wherever possible, can be a bit more expensive...but tend to be bullet proof too.

 

Bob

[Combe Martin]

I've got lots of ZTC258 (previously known as the 4007) and 255 (the hardwire equivalent) decoders, as well as Lenz standard+ s.  I believe them to be the equal in performance of the Lenz with plenty of CVs to play with if you want to (unlike the Hornby R8249), and Bachmann (where the back EMF just dosn't work well for steam locos).  It has the advantage of being a direct plug in decoder with the 8 pins on the underside and so doesn't need much space.  Its' circuit board area is just under 2/3 of the Lenz so it's smaller and no wires.

 

I've never had one fail, and if you buy a five pack they cost £19 each. 

 

And I don't work for ZTC, just a satisfied customer.

[250BOB]

I've got lots of ZTC258 (previously known as the 4007) and 255 (the hardwire equivalent) decoders, as well as Lenz standard+ s.  I believe them to be the equal in performance of the Lenz with plenty of CVs to play with if you want to (unlike the Hornby R8249), and Bachmann (where the back EMF just dosn't work well for steam locos).  It has the advantage of being a direct plug in decoder with the 8 pins on the underside and so doesn't need much space.  Its' circuit board area is just under 2/3 of the Lenz so it's smaller and no wires.

 

I've never had one fail, and if you buy a five pack they cost £19 each. 

 

And I don't work for ZTC, just a satisfied customer

 

I'm surprised you say it is equal to Lenz in terms of performance....they were certainly not some years ago.

 

They have a physical look about them to such as DCC Concepts and TCS decoders.....which certainly dont match up to Lenz in some areas.

 

On the other hand.....it also depends on what you want from your decoders, and how you "drive" your locos too.

[GoingUnderground]

The 4007 doesn't work on DC. When i enquired many years ago I was told that it needs "Pure DC" which I think means the rectified AC needs to be smoothed with a capacitor. Certainly they don't work with my 50 year old Triang P5 or H&M Duette, unlike other makes. I don't know if this still applies to the 258, so I'd be interested to hear if they do now work on "regular" DC. 

[corax67]

Are you sure you want to go back to the dark side of ZTC Bob . . . . . . Remember what happened last time

[250BOB]

Are you sure you want to go back to the dark side of ZTC Bob . . . . . . Remember what happened last time

 

Hi Karl,

I have absolutely NO intention whatsoever of visiting the ZTC decoder issues again.   I was curious when I read a response on another thread by Combe Martin, where he said he had lots of ZTC258 decoders in use....and that they were as good as Lenz decoders.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84834-what-chip-to-use/

 

 

I thought I was missing out on something, hence started this new thread to ask about the merits or not, of these decoders.

 

Bob.

[Combe Martin]

The reason I say I find the ZTC258 is the equal of the Lenz Standard in performance is that I have all four Bachmann S&D 7Fs.  These have a 21 pin socket in the tender and I've fitted 2 with Lenz Standards and 2 with ZTC258s for comparison, all via a 21/8 adapter (you have to cut down the support posts to reduce the height that the 21 pin socket sits at).

 

I've run one Lenz and one ZTC fitted loco round my layout about 6 inches apart at various slow speeds adjusting the regulator for each loco a little at a time, watching them carefully, and both locos perform equally smoothly from walking pace upwards (Bachmann's own 21 pin decoder cant cope with their 7F at walking pace).

 

I've also got 2 Bachmann Standard class 4 2-6-0s, one fitted with a Lenz Standard and one with a ZTC258, and I've done the same test with them too.

 

I have no need to run my locos on a DC layout so can't comment on that.

 

And what is meant by 'the dark side of ZTC', and 'ZTC decoder issues'.   ZTC's older generation of decoders were replaced by the current range many years ago, and my understanding is that there is no relationship between them at all.  

 

I'm not saying that the older generation of ZTC decoders were without problems, but judging by comments here, neither were those from many other decoder suppliers.  And again judging by comments on here, there can still be problems with some current decoders from some of the other manufacturers.  I've certainly experienced the strange 'speed curve' in the TCS DP2X-UK (their decoder that looks like a ZTC258), and had to return a faulty one as well.

[250BOB]

The reason I say I find the ZTC258 is the equal of the Lenz Standard in performance is that I have all four Bachmann S&D 7Fs.  These have a 21 pin socket in the tender and I've fitted 2 with Lenz Standards and 2 with ZTC258s for comparison, all via a 21/8 adapter (you have to cut down the support posts to reduce the height that the 21 pin socket sits at).

 

I've run one Lenz and one ZTC fitted loco round my layout about 6 inches apart at various slow speeds adjusting the regulator for each loco a little at a time, watching them carefully, and both locos perform equally smoothly from walking pace upwards (Bachmann's own 21 pin decoder cant cope with their 7F at walking pace).

 

I've also got 2 Bachmann Standard class 4 2-6-0s, one fitted with a Lenz Standard and one with a ZTC258, and I've done the same test with them too.

 

I have no need to run my locos on a DC layout so can't comment on that.

 

And what is meant by 'the dark side of ZTC', and 'ZTC decoder issues'.   ZTC's older generation of decoders were replaced by the current range many years ago, and my understanding is that there is no relationship between them at all.  

 

I'm not saying that the older generation of ZTC decoders were without problems, but judging by comments here, neither were those from many other decoder suppliers.  And again judging by comments on here, there can still be problems with some current decoders from some of the other manufacturers.  I've certainly experienced the strange 'speed curve' in the TCS DP2X-UK (their decoder that looks like a ZTC258), and had to return a faulty one as well.

 

Hi CM

I did have a bad experience with ZTC decoders about 5 or 6 years ago..........so I am perhaps talking about them in a historical sense.   But having been let down badly by their performance, I am reluctant to go down that route again.   And its good to air experiences here on RMweb about the merits or not, of various decoders, for everyones benefit.

 

I note you have experience too, of the TCS DP2X-UK, me too.!!!!!!!!!   Very bad ones....!!!!!!

 

I had over 6 of them at one point, but they have all failed over the past 5 years or so........never had a Lenz fail yet. I have about 40/50 DCC fitted locos.

 

Here is where I find the problem.   Mostly in passenger trains running at a scale 40/50mph...........when they start down my 1 in 80 gradients, the speed ends up at 50/60 at the bottom, where there is a curve and a station.......it is most unrealistic.

 

I set CV3 very high, to give an extremely slow acceleration, similarly with CV4 for the deceleration.  CV5 is set to give a top speed of about 45mph, and CV6 set to half the value of CV5.

 

That is generally how I set up all my CV values.....except that CV5 on freights set to give a top speed of about 20mph.

 

When I'm operating up to 4 locos at a time on my layout, I tend to rely on the decoder to do the work, hence my settings. 

 

Its only when I use these setting in decoders other than Lenz, that I get the failures.

 

I would be interested to learn what sort of settings you use with your ZTC and lenz decoders.

 

Bottom line for all of us though is, if you are happy with how you use them...then thats fine.

 

Bob

[Combe Martin]

Hello Bob.

 

My layout is based upon a real location, Bailey Gate (which has a dairy) on the S&D double track main line, and as such a lot of my locos (especially S&D 7Fs) could be hauling anything from an express passenger train to shunting milk tanks in and out of the dairy sidings and attaching them to the rear of a waiting local passenger train, or hauling a slowish freight.  For shunting I'm using the Electra coupling (home made efforts) which uncouples magnetically, and so require very good slow speed control and (the opposite to you) very short acceleration and deceleration rates, and I have no gradients.  All my locos are steam and are correct for the S&D, 32 at the moment all DCC fitted, 23 ZTC258/255, 3 Lenz Standard, 3 Digitrax DN135D, 1 Bachmann 21 pin, 1 Hornby R8249 and 1 TCS DP2X-UK.   Although I do slow speed shunting, I also leave long trains trundling around the main lines for hours on end, and I've never had a decoder failure, just the one faulty TCS which went back immediately.

 

The locos that I've configured for decoder comparison are 2 Bachmann S&D 7Fs, one fitted with a ZTC258 and with the capacitors and chokes removed and the other with a Lenz standard+ with capacitors only removed.   The removal of the capacitors and chokes was nothing to do with these 2 decoders but rather a legacy of when I was trying to get these 2 locos to run well (not jittery at slow speed) using the Bachmann 21 pin decoder, something which I gave up on.

 

To get roughly equal performance at the moment I've used for the ZTC CV2=7 CV3=8 CV4=4 CV5=98 CV6=58 CV57=3  and for the Lenz CV2=1 CV3=20 CV4=7 CV5=109 CV6=53

 

The Bachmann 21 pin decoder is now in a Bachmann 3F, and with the Back EMF CVs set to CV54=1 and CV55=60 (nowhere near the defaults) this copes reasonably, but this may be to do with it being a simple mechanism i.e. a 6 coupled loco with no valve gear, as opposed to the 7F which is an 8 coupled loco with lots of valve gear and a chassis (all 4 of which) seem to have a slight tight spot noticeable when running in on DC.  

[250BOB]

Hello Bob.

 

My layout is based upon a real location, Bailey Gate (which has a dairy) on the S&D double track main line, and as such a lot of my locos (especially S&D 7Fs) could be hauling anything from an express passenger train to shunting milk tanks in and out of the dairy sidings and attaching them to the rear of a waiting local passenger train, or hauling a slowish freight.  For shunting I'm using the Electra coupling (home made efforts) which uncouples magnetically, and so require very good slow speed control and (the opposite to you) very short acceleration and deceleration rates, and I have no gradients.  All my locos are steam and are correct for the S&D, 32 at the moment all DCC fitted, 23 ZTC258/255, 3 Lenz Standard, 3 Digitrax DN135D, 1 Bachmann 21 pin, 1 Hornby R8249 and 1 TCS DP2X-UK.   Although I do slow speed shunting, I also leave long trains trundling around the main lines for hours on end, and I've never had a decoder failure, just the one faulty TCS which went back immediately.

 

The locos that I've configured for decoder comparison are 2 Bachmann S&D 7Fs, one fitted with a ZTC258 and with the capacitors and chokes removed and the other with a Lenz standard+ with capacitors only removed.   The removal of the capacitors and chokes was nothing to do with these 2 decoders but rather a legacy of when I was trying to get these 2 locos to run well (not jittery at slow speed) using the Bachmann 21 pin decoder, something which I gave up on.

 

To get roughly equal performance at the moment I've used for the ZTC CV2=7 CV3=8 CV4=4 CV5=98 CV6=58 CV57=3  and for the Lenz CV2=1 CV3=20 CV4=7 CV5=109 CV6=53

 

The Bachmann 21 pin decoder is now in a Bachmann 3F, and with the Back EMF CVs set to CV54=1 and CV55=60 (nowhere near the defaults) this copes reasonably, but this may be to do with it being a simple mechanism i.e. a 6 coupled loco with no valve gear, as opposed to the 7F which is an 8 coupled loco with lots of valve gear and a chassis (all 4 of which) seem to have a slight tight spot noticeable when running in on DC.  

 

Your layout and era sound like just up my pals street........he models Bournemouth West and Central, and hence the Pines express comes into play on the S&D.

 

Its clear we set up completely diferently.....as a comparision, these are the settings I use for my expresses.  i.e. Jubilees, Scots, Britannias etc.,

 

CV2...........1

CV3...........150 to 250

CV4............  60 to 75

CV5............100 to 120

CV6 ............ 50 to 60

 

for my freights

CV2.............1

CV3............. 200 to 250

CV4..............  60 to 75

CV5..............  40 to 60  

CV6..............  20 to 30

 

A you can see, I prefer to set my trains off at speed step of 28/28.....and not have to accelerate them using  speed steps, one at a time.  This way, I can sit back and watch the train accelerate prototypically, or get on and operate something else.

I see your top speeds (CV5) is very similar to mine......but your acceleration and deceleration requires you to carefully use the speed steps on your controller.

 

If thats how you prefer it...thats fine, everybody has their own preference.  

 

Bob.

[250BOB]

Virtually no feedback on this thread asking for opinions of the ZTC258...???

 

This is unusual on RMweb, as normally the membership are quite helpful and vocal in one direction or another.

 

Because of the very bad history of the ZTC controller and associated decoders....is it possible that people are avoiding them.....i.e. once burnt etc., ??

 

Bob

[two tone green]

Could be Bob.

 

Quite a few people on here have given up on ZTC and moved on due to so many issues, historical and current.