Request for information and advice on Hornby R505

[petertg]

Hi all!
I have just acquired a near new version of Hornby Model R505 LMS Class 4P tank. Since I observed differences with the later Stanier 4p tank I already have, I looked up details on the Internet and, among other things, I saw that Hattons had advertised an as new version but, since it had been sold, there was no price tag. I also saw that there is another one in mint condition offered on e-Bay, with the separate accessories that mine does not have. However the price asked for this latter is 55% higher than what I have just paid and postage of GBP19 is quoted, whereas I have paid GBP12 for two items, which were more than adequately wrapped for the trip.
Having all that off my chest, I have some questions to ask, namely:
1. Over what time period was this model originally marketed? This one was most likely post 1971, since it has a decimal price tag (only GBP1.70 less than what I paid for it this week).
2 How can I modify the couplings? The front one is integral with the pony truck, while the rear one is attached with a screw.
3. I have tested it and it runs well on the straights, but seems to jam at the points. All the points were purchased new in 2007 and after. Before I get my nose down to track level, can anybody suggest a reason?
4. Would it be hard to digitize this locomotive? My other tank came DCC fitted, but with a decoder that leaves much to be desired.
5. Can I get an instruction sheet with an exploded diagram anywhere?
Any other comments would oblige.

[Fat Controller]

The instruction sheet would appear to be on here (4P Fowler):-

http://www.Hornby.com/downloads/view/index/cat/16/?p=2

[YK 50A]

Hello,

 

According to the Hornby Railway Collectors Guide (which is normally spot on), this particular version was produced between 1992 and 1995.  There are also links from there to the front and back of the service sheet.  At the bottom of the page, there are further links to relevant online sales, which may or may not be of interest.

 

I can't help you with your more technical queries, I get a "man who can" to fit chips to locomotives that aren't DCC ready.

 

Alun

[petertg]

Thanks for the information, but the instruction sheet available on the above link is for a more modern model. Another question is, does anyone know how to remove the pony truck (this goes for both the Fowler 4P and for the Stanier 4P)?

[YK 50A]

Thanks for the information, but the instruction sheet available on the above link is for a more modern model. Another question is, does anyone know how to remove the pony truck (this goes for both the Fowler 4P and for the Stanier 4P)?

 

I doubt it is an R505 then.  Is it in the wrong box?  If you check out the link I gave you above, there's all the other Hornby 4Ps listed too, with service sheets if there are any.

[Silver Sidelines]

I love jumping in with both feet....I don't know your particular model but a favourite method used by Hornby for attaching the front bogie was by a couple of moulded plastic spigots which were integral with the bottom plate.  Gently removing the two or three screws on the bottom plate should allow the bogie to be pulled free.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[petertg]

I have rechecked the link and have downloaded a service sheet for this model. It is R505.

[YK 50A]

I have rechecked the link and have downloaded a service sheet for this model. It is R505.

 

Pleasure, no problem, don't mention it, no really! 

[kevinlms]

Question 5/

 

Try here.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_menu.asp

 

Looks like Sheet 122 (Front & Back) is the 1981 version, which you probably have.

 

Question 3/

 

The wheels are too close together - you need to increase the back to back of the wheels. A very common problem with old Hornby when attempting to run them on anything other their own contemporary track.

[petertg]

Thanks for all the help. This locomotive definitely belongs to the 1992-95 period and I have downloaded the corresponding Service Sheet 122A. All my track, except for a few straight sections, is Hornby bought 2007 onwards. The truth is that I have only given it a couple of trips round the circuit to see if it worked and have not investigated more deeply. In any case, I will check the back to back. For the time being, I have enough food for thought. Thanks once again.

[petertg]

I come back to this thread because I have recently been trying to get the R505 to run, since in November last I purchased a new R3553 Princess Coronation in LMS livery and in December part of the crank gear fell apart, for which reason I have returned it to Hornby. 

I have the NMRA gauge and the back-to-back on the R505 is right. I did have problems with one of the pick-ups but seem to have solved that problem. While not perfect, the locomotive runs in reverse through the points but not when running forward. I had fitted a kadee coupling to the rear end and it did cause problems because it was too low, but I fixed that. However, there is currently no coupling at the front end, so that cannot be a reason for stopping at every point. I don't think that it is a problem of a break in dcc signal, because the loco stops when the front pony truck reaches the point and the driving wheels with the pick-ups are still on energised track. The points are Hornby insulfrog. Any proposals for a solution. All aid will be highly appreciated.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...  the locomotive runs in reverse through the points but not when running forward...

That establishes that there is power on the track through the points. 

 

... the loco stops when the front pony truck reaches the point and the driving wheels with the pick-ups are still on energised track...

 So, logically something related to the pony truck causes power collection from the track to cease. Normally this is due to some lifting of the pick up wheels clear of the track.

 

Unclip the pony truck and try the loco in the troublesome direction over the points. If it runs as it should then you know positively that it is the action of the pony truck. Now, if there is only one effective pick up on one wheel on one side of a loco, this wheel alone being lifted clear of the rail that side is all that is required to stop the model. Thatls the kind of underlying problem that leads to this sort of situation.

 

... I did have problems with one of the pick-ups but seem to have solved that problem...

You need to be able to write that you are sure you have solved all pick up problems. Test the loco off track and inverted, with flying leads. The motor should start without fail by single contacts to any pick up wheel tyre either side, in any combination. If it will not, then that has to be corrected.

 

In short, I believe you probably have two problems to solve:

The pony truck is likely to be lifting one or more of the loco's current collecting wheels off the rails;

Pick up is probably not fully effective on all wheels.

Edited April 7, 2018 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[The Johnster]

i agree with 34; 2 problems at once present issues in terms of correct diagnosis.  This loco, IIRC (I owned one of it's ancestors in the 1980s) pick up on the leading and trailing driving wheels, and on one side of the pony truck (leading wheels) and the other of the trailing bogie.  So, if the loco is stalling on dead frogs with the pony wheels over the frog, it cannot be returning current to the track through the pickups on the other sides of the leading and trailing driving wheels or the trailing bogie.  If I have read your information correctly, this is proved by the fact that it runs without stalling if it faces in the other direction.  If all is well, loss of pickup at the pony should not stall the loco as pickup is still available at the other points.

 

Clean all of the pickups, and the wheel tyres and backs (where the pickups bear against them) thoroughly, and check that the back to back is correct around the circumference of all the wheels, and that the wheels are perpendicular to the axles.  If they are not, you may have an issue with the wheel runs away from contact with the pickup at a part of it's revolution.  Pickups are a faffy sort of thing.  

 

Check that the flangeways of all your points are clean and free from debris, as if the loco is lifting on muck in there, pickup contact with the rail is compromised and running will affected.  And, of course, make sure the track is clean and laid smoothly and level especially at pointwork.  Run a straight edge of at least 18" length over the point and ensure that it is resting on the rail head over it's complete length.

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit like teaching granny to suck eggs, but these are the first and obvious offenders if a pick problem is identifiable with a specific location or type of location.  

[petertg]

I have had another long session this afternoon but clarified nothing, rather I have discovered a mystery. Firth of all I would state that this model only picks up on the front and rear driving wheels, the centre wheels being flangeless and provided with a non metal tyre. There is no pick up on the pony truck or bogie. Slso, I found that the b2b on one pair of driving wheels was slightly narrow and corrected this fact. I would also add that this loco is fitted with a hard-wired Zimo decoder.

 

My eyesight is not good and I have difficulty in distinguishing dark things against a dark background, sometimes even with a bright light. I say this for what follows. I turned the loco upsidedown and applied current to both wheels on one same axle on both axles and then diagonally across axles and in both directions of running. and in all cases it worked. Then, using my NMRA gauge as a reflector to throw light upwards and looking behind the wheels I discovered than one pick-up was not touching its wheel and yet this wheel conducted when current was applied to it and there was no short since, when a short occurs, the controller cuts out.

So, I dont know what to make of it.

(Sunday) I have checked my affirmation above that the wheel was conducting without a pick-up by placing just that axle on the end of a piece of track and applyinf current and the motor turned.

Edited April 8, 2018 by petertg

[Wickham Green]

I have had another long session this afternoon but clarified nothing, rather I have discovered a mystery. Firth of all I would state that this model only picks up on the front and rear driving wheels, the centre wheels being flangeless and provided with a non metal tyre. There is no pick up on the pony truck or bogie. Slso, I found that the b2b on one pair of driving wheels was slightly narrow and corrected this fact. I would also add that this loco is fitted with a hard-wired Zimo decoder.

 

My eyesight is not good and I have difficulty in distinguishing dark things against a dark background, sometimes even with a bright light. I say this for what follows. I turned the loco upsidedown and applied current to both wheels on one same axle on both axles and then diagonally across axles and in both directions of running. and in all cases it worked. Then, using my NMRA gauge as a reflector to throw light upwards and looking behind the wheels I discovered than one pick-up was not touching its wheel and yet this wheel conducted when current was applied to it and there was no short since, when a short occurs, the controller cuts out.

So, I dont know what to make of it.

(Sunday) I have checked my affirmation above that the wheel was conducting without a pick-up by placing just that axle on the end of a piece of track and applyinf current and the motor turned.

I don't think you've answered whether the pony truck is one of Hornby's supposedly-self-centring twin-pivot horrors - but if it IS there will be a lot of fore and aft movement which MIGHT account for a problem in one direction and not the other. Could it be that the pony wheels are lifting and shorting out on the frame when running through your pointwork ?

[DCB]

Run two locos on the same track at least a foot apart. If the R505 stops and the other keeps going it is a pick up problem, but if as I suspect both stop it is a short.

 

Most likely problem is an insulating bush collar has worn or disintegrated on a pony truck wheel letting the tyre short on the frame or simply the axle is the wrong way round and has a live wheel on the insulated side.

 

The back to back should be around 14.25 mm sliding fit, I have a 14.25mm Go gauge and a 14.65 mm no go gauge so all my wheels can be set within tolerances.

 

If your points are set track then poor running is just about guaranteed unless you undertake major surgery. I have live frogged some but its much easier to relay with2ft radius Peco Streamline,

[petertg]

My track is set track, but there is no shorting since, otherwise, the controller would cut out. I have noticed the play on the front pony truck. However, this afternoon I readjusted the faulty pick-up (not that that was causing any problem) and had another go on the layout and this time the loco did go through the points, albeuit with hesitation on certain points. I repass the whole track to make sure it is completely clean and then have another go.

Thanks for all your comments.