NRM - Well Done

[M.I.B]

I finally got to the NRM this week.

 

I have seen lots of people moaning about the NRM on this site, but I was not deterred.

 

To cut a long waffle short, We had a great day.

 

In fact the only bad thing about the whole day were the rivet counters who talked at full volume because they wanted everyone to hear why this and that were painted the wrong shade of the other.

 

Yes for "experts" there will always be flaws, but if preservation venues keep the general public flocking in, who pay to keep railway preservation going, minor flaws must be worth turning a blind eye to.

 

Well done to the NRM (and everyone else in the preservation movement).

[byron]

I finally got to the NRM this week.

 

I have seen lots of people moaning about the NRM on this site, but I was not deterred.

 

To cut a long waffle short, We had a great day.

 

In fact the only bad thing about the whole day were the rivet counters who talked at full volume because they wanted everyone to hear why this and that were painted the wrong shade of the other.

 

Yes for "experts" there will always be flaws, but if preservation venues keep the general public flocking in, who pay to keep railway preservation going, minor flaws must be worth turning a blind eye to.

 

Well done to the NRM (and everyone else in the preservation movement).

Well said, Sir!

 

Mike

[Boris]

The very loud so called experts are probably the ones who are unfamiliar with soap and whose idea of a mucky video is a clip of a coal train.

[TheWeatheringMan]

I finally got to the NRM this week.

 

I have seen lots of people moaning about the NRM on this site, but I was not deterred.

 

To cut a long waffle short, We had a great day.

 

In fact the only bad thing about the whole day were the rivet counters who talked at full volume because they wanted everyone to hear why this and that were painted the wrong shade of the other.

 

Yes for "experts" there will always be flaws, but if preservation venues keep the general public flocking in, who pay to keep railway preservation going, minor flaws must be worth turning a blind eye to.

 

Well done to the NRM (and everyone else in the preservation movement).

Hi,

Glad you enjoyed your visit.

The other posters have put the position perfectly.

One other point i'd add from a professional point:

These so call 'experts' (in their own opinion) spout their rubbish that 'this isnt painted the corect shade of puce' (or whatever) totally overlooking several factors including that nobody, repeat nobody can accuratly recall the exact shade of a colour for more than a few minutes, so unless another item painted in the 'same' livery nearby exhibits a difference how do they know - and then how do they 'know' which of the two is 'correct'.

Also of course there is the matter that modern paint materials often cannot exactly reproduce old colours so some compromise must be accepted.

Unfortunatly these types are everywhere.

Not so long ago I was on Swanage station and the crowd were 'entertained' by one of these idiots moaning that the Class 121 'bubblecar' was all wrong because its in green livery but has a high intensity headlight on the front.

I say much better to have something preserved (and not just for railways) even if the colour isnt right or the fittings dont suit the livery than to lose the item for ever -afterall, a poor example is better than no example at all.

 

Regards

[Boris]

Exactly, I am pretty sure you can't say X item of rolling stock was X shade of green.  Especially when you factor in such things dirt, fading etc.

 

I rather enjoyed one bloke spouting off one day to a random guy on the platform at Whitby, to be told exactly what to do with himself involving perhaps care in the community and maybe something much ruder that I can't really repeat on here.

[TheWeatheringMan]

Exactly, I am pretty sure you can't say X item of rolling stock was X shade of green.  Especially when you factor in such things dirt, fading etc.

 

I rather enjoyed one bloke spouting off one day to a random guy on the platform at Whitby, to be told exactly what to do with himself involving perhaps care in the community and maybe something much ruder that I can't really repeat on here.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

You are of course completely right regarding weathering etc.

I didnt go on to mention these matters as its likely the 'experts' would argue that weathering dosnt take place in a museum!.

 

These people are entertaining in a sad sort of way arn't they?.

 

Regards

[Rumblestripe]

Exactly, I am pretty sure you can't say X item of rolling stock was X shade of green.  Especially when you factor in such things dirt, fading etc.

And it's not just that. Try to declare a definitive colour shade a century after it was originally applied to a locomotive is impossible. Even a colour chip will have been painted over with subsequent repaints or changed by a contempory varnish which probably yellowed, etc. The time of day and weather conditions will change the colour perceived as will the surroundings, a blue object surrounded by green fields will look entirely different to the same object placed between concrete buildings. They also do not understand the way in which the human eye processes colour. It is often said that the human eyeball is a very poor optical instrument supported by a simply sensationally processor in the human brain. In other words the information that is projected onto the back of the eye by the lens in your eye is then "processed" by our internal CPU and because our eyesight evolved to give us an evolutionary advantage we tend to recognise differences in colour in a perceived scene we do not (and indeed cannot) register a definitive shade like an internal Pantone Colour Chart. So, Rail Blue looks "bluer" than a concrete building but perhaps not as blue as the Ford Cortina parked nearby. 

[Froxfield2012]

As I think I have said earlier somewhere on this forum, one of my childhood memories was of the great J N Maskelyne (Editor of Model Railway News) declaring in Reading MPD in 1957 that City of Truro's frames had been painted the wrong shade of Indian Red in its restoration.  Now JNM had way above average perception of colour and a terrific memory:  witness his "Locomotives I have Known" books.  But even at the age of ten I wondered HOW could anyone be so sure about colour.  I am even more set in my views now and concur with Boris and Rumblestripe.  And very definitely agree with the OP.

 

Richard

[TheWeatheringMan]

As I think I have said earlier somewhere on this forum, one of my childhood memories was of the great J N Maskelyne (Editor of Model Railway News) declaring in Reading MPD in 1957 that City of Truro's frames had been painted the wrong shade of Indian Red in its restoration.  Now JNM had way above average perception of colour and a terrific memory:  witness his "Locomotives I have Known" books.  But even at the age of ten I wondered HOW could anyone be so sure about colour.  I am even more set in my views now and concur with Boris and Rumblestripe.  And very definitely agree with the OP.

 

Richard

Hi,

Just to settle the matter of City of Truro, Maskelyne WAS perfectly correct in his comment.

When C of T was restored at Swindon and placed in ordinary traffic the outside frames were painted with standard BR freight stock bauxite darkened slightly by the addition of black.

The green used was normal BR  loco brunswick green rather than GWR middle chrome green.

This was because the Railway Executive would not allow the expentiture on specially produced paint and to allow 'touching up' in service to be done away from Swindon.

When the loco was placed in Swindon Museum (Farringdon Rd.) the green was corrected and of course the frames were painted black.

 

Regards

[Froxfield2012]

Agreed The WeatheringMan, the debate was settled some long time ago.  My point (not well made) was that JNM had a very particular talent.  I don't think I could actually tell the difference unless a panel of one shade was held up against another and I certainly wouldn't trust one colour photo versus another (although I doubt there would be colour photos of CoT in original condition).  I suspect most of what one hears is pretty idle chatter, isn't it?

 

Richard  

[TheWeatheringMan]

Agreed The WeatheringMan, the debate was settled some long time ago.  My point (not well made) was that JNM had a very particular talent.  I don't think I could actually tell the difference unless a panel of one shade was held up against another and I certainly wouldn't trust one colour photo versus another (although I doubt there would be colour photos of CoT in original condition).  I suspect most of what one hears is pretty idle chatter, isn't it?

 

Richard  

Hi,

Yes indeed much idle chatter that is often full of inaccuracies and likely to distort history if not stopped.

Back in the 1970's I was involved in very extensive research into both railway and bus liveries and our research uncovered some interesting facts that today are either forgotten by many or simply not known.

Luckily I still have the records and colour samples from that project.

Many myths regarding livery colours are just that, myths.

Things that jump to mind are 'variations' of GWR Middle Chrome Green, the story of MR 'crimson lake' versus LMS 'crimson' versus BR 'maroon' and from the bus industry the evolution of liveries during the early years of the much missed National Bus Company.

 

Regards

[Colin]

The crimson lake vs LMS crimson vs BR maroon debate has always interested me - why is it that some colour shots of Stanier pacifics show a clean or even ex-works loco which is almost a perfect match for the stock it's pulling while others show a loco in similar condition which is actually several shades lighter than the first coach? Is it just a trick of the light, or was the paint of variable shade when it was first supplied?

[Dave Scott]

These days computers can replicate colours using exact amounts of pigments.In steam days mixing was done by hand and each batch might be subtly different. The recepie could also change from works to works. I have heard it said that Wolverhampton green was different to Swindons.

 

These so called experts are amusing in an odd sort of way. I am into operations, I am a guard. Many years ago when I worked on KESR we used a bell code to the signal box. I gave the corect bell code, acording to the general instructions of KESR, to be greted by a bellow "he is doing that all wrong - he should not be a guard". I simply shook my head and got on with my duties in acordance with the KESR rules and general instructions which I knew he had not read

[t-b-g]

Why do people think that colours have to be remembered from many years ago and that the human eye and brain cannot do such things so we don't stand a chance?

 

The colours of the period have been with us throughout, either on preserved locos or on models that date from the period.

 

When the GNR Atlantics were preserved in the 1950s, there were still LNER Green locos about and I can't imagine that special paint was mixed.

 

The Midland 2-4-0 and Single were preserved when there were still LMS maroon locos knocking about.

 

If you look at the GNR Atlantics, then look at Green Arrow or Morayshire (before they changed the livery from turquoise to black) you don't have to be a professor, an expert or a really sad geek to see that they are not the same colour as each other, by a country mile!

 

As I have been lucky enough to have had a sample of real LNER green paint in my sticky little mitts, I can say, with a degree of certainty, that the Atlantics (plus the preserved B12 and B1 - not sure if they are still green as I haven't seen them for a while) are as near as makes no difference correct.

 

That allows for varnishing/undercoats/reflections from the sky and all the other variations.

 

To say that nobody can remember colours and that they varied so much that it doesn't matter is just as sad in my view. Should Precision Paints just do one Green, one red and one blue and we use them for everything because we know no better and nobody can say they are wrong?

 

Or should we try to do our research and get our colours as close as we can, at least within an acceptable range of variation?

 

Tony

[Boris]

The crimson lake vs LMS crimson vs BR maroon debate has always interested me - why is it that some colour shots of Stanier pacifics show a clean or even ex-works loco which is almost a perfect match for the stock it's pulling while others show a loco in similar condition which is actually several shades lighter than the first coach? Is it just a trick of the light, or was the paint of variable shade when it was first supplied?

 

As someone who has painted full scale railway vehicles various shades of red/brown I can probably point in vaguely the right direction in that red and brown paint blooms like hell in sunlight, changing colour fairly quickly, BR maroon for example becomes much darker over time compared to the very red colour when it is first applied.  We received multiple letters over a period of some years complaining about our green Pullman car, and in all fairness close up it was a very dark green, it started off the correct shade of brown and this could still be seen where the sun didn't quite reach.

[TheWeatheringMan]

The crimson lake vs LMS crimson vs BR maroon debate has always interested me - why is it that some colour shots of Stanier pacifics show a clean or even ex-works loco which is almost a perfect match for the stock it's pulling while others show a loco in similar condition which is actually several shades lighter than the first coach? Is it just a trick of the light, or was the paint of variable shade when it was first supplied?

Hi Colin,

This one is due to a number of factors including possible variations in lighting and photo colour reproduction due to the nature of photographic emulsions. If the picture is of the BR period (post 1956) then the locomotive colour was lighter than the colour on maroon coaches.

To give a more comprehensive reply based on our research will take a while to type up.

As its getting late and I need to get to bed i'll work on a fuller reply later tomorrow and post it then - probably during the evening.

I hope that will be ok with you.

Regards

[TheWeatheringMan]

These days computers can replicate colours using exact amounts of pigments.In steam days mixing was done by hand and each batch might be subtly different. The recepie could also change from works to works. I have heard it said that Wolverhampton green was different to Swindons.

 

These so called experts are amusing in an odd sort of way. I am into operations, I am a guard. Many years ago when I worked on KESR we used a bell code to the signal box. I gave the corect bell code, acording to the general instructions of KESR, to be greted by a bellow "he is doing that all wrong - he should not be a guard". I simply shook my head and got on with my duties in acordance with the KESR rules and general instructions which I knew he had not read

Hi,

Sorry but this is not correct at all.

Computer colour matching cannot replicate all colours, especially very old colours such as from railway liveries, as modern pigments often cannot produce the same results as old pigment.

The way pigments interact within a mix is now very different.

This is a problem I have been involved with for many years.

The best that can be hoped for is in some cases 'very very close but not exact'

 

Regards

[TheWeatheringMan]

Why do people think that colours have to be remembered from many years ago and that the human eye and brain cannot do such things so we don't stand a chance?

 

The colours of the period have been with us throughout, either on preserved locos or on models that date from the period.

 

When the GNR Atlantics were preserved in the 1950s, there were still LNER Green locos about and I can't imagine that special paint was mixed.

 

The Midland 2-4-0 and Single were preserved when there were still LMS maroon locos knocking about.

 

If you look at the GNR Atlantics, then look at Green Arrow or Morayshire (before they changed the livery from turquoise to black) you don't have to be a professor, an expert or a really sad geek to see that they are not the same colour as each other, by a country mile!

 

As I have been lucky enough to have had a sample of real LNER green paint in my sticky little mitts, I can say, with a degree of certainty, that the Atlantics (plus the preserved B12 and B1 - not sure if they are still green as I haven't seen them for a while) are as near as makes no difference correct.

 

That allows for varnishing/undercoats/reflections from the sky and all the other variations.

 

To say that nobody can remember colours and that they varied so much that it doesn't matter is just as sad in my view. Should Precision Paints just do one Green, one red and one blue and we use them for everything because we know no better and nobody can say they are wrong?

 

Or should we try to do our research and get our colours as close as we can, at least within an acceptable range of variation?

 

Tony

Hi,

Yet again much of this is totally wrong.

Yes its true that preserved items and models exist that were painted at the relevent time - perhaps even with the real paint.

However, paint of those old days was not stable - that is a fact that any paint chemist will tell you.

A coat of paint applied back then will suffer from pigment 'settle' , oxidisation of the metalic elements in the paint - particularly darkening of lead based pigments and the effects of dirt in the atmosphere.

Put simply (and a proven fact) a coat of paint applied, say, in 1910, will NOT now be the same colour as when freshly applied.

This one fact alone makes such an example unreliable as a reference.

 

What do you offer as the reason for the variations you quote if it is not the factors outlined below.

As to a 'sample of genuine LNER green' - the shade of this, will, given the age of the material, have changed to an extent due to chemical reaction within the paint after all those years.

 

I totally agree with you that we should try to ensure any modern application of livery is as close as possible to the original but in some cases it has got to be accepted (and it is by preservationists) that we can only, at this distance in time, achieve a best result but perhaps not a totally perfect one - because in many cases perfect sample of the original simply does not now exist.

 

 

As to human colour memory - again it is proven scientific and medical fact that colour memory is not good enough in anyone for a person to hold a perfect recall of a colour over an extended period.

This is further hindered by the fact that we all see and perceive colours differently - this is why when paint is mixed 'by eye' to a shade card in a workshop different people will mix slight variations as they 'see' the shade card differently.

One of the most well known examples of this were the GWR building colours of Light and Dark Stone (GWR Stone No.1 and Stone No.3) - these being mixed on site by the painter from white lead base and burnt sienna pigment. The consequent variation from station to station was very noticeable.

And as for GWR wagon grey when applied by wagon repairers at yard 'cripple' sidings - officially mixed from white lead and lampblack pigment supplied but if lampblack was short a handfull of soot was used. Work out the variations that led to !!.

These natural variations that have occured, plus others resulting from differing paint manufacture over the years, wartime problems, and application processes are why model paint makers offer different shades of the 'same' colour as we are trying to capture the 'look' as seen from the lineside but cannot on our models exactly replicate the full size processes.

 

 

No, i'm sorry but both your arguments here are completely wide of the mark i'm afraid for the reasons given.

 

Regards

[t-b-g]

Hi,

Yet again much of this is totally wrong.

Yes its true that preserved items and models exist that were painted at the relevent time - perhaps even with the real paint.

However, paint of those old days was not stable - that is a fact that any paint chemist will tell you.

A coat of paint applied back then will suffer from pigment 'settle' , oxidisation of the metalic elements in the paint - particularly darkening of lead based pigments and the effects of dirt in the atmosphere.

Put simply (and a proven fact) a coat of paint applied, say, in 1910, will NOT now be the same colour as when freshly applied.

This one fact alone makes such an example unreliable as a reference.

 

What do you offer as the reason for the variations you quote if it is not the factors outlined below.

As to a 'sample of genuine LNER green' - the shade of this, will, given the age of the material, have changed to an extent due to chemical reaction within the paint after all those years.

 

I totally agree with you that we should try to ensure any modern application of livery is as close as possible to the original but in some cases it has got to be accepted (and it is by preservationists) that we can only, at this distance in time, achieve a best result but perhaps not a totally perfect one - because in many cases perfect sample of the original simply does not now exist.

 

 

As to human colour memory - again it is proven scientific and medical fact that colour memory is not good enough in anyone for a person to hold a perfect recall of a colour over an extended period.

This is further hindered by the fact that we all see and perceive colours differently - this is why when paint is mixed 'by eye' to a shade card in a workshop different people will mix slight variations as they 'see' the shade card differently.

One of the most well known examples of this were the GWR building colours of Light and Dark Stone (GWR Stone No.1 and Stone No.3) - these being mixed on site by the painter from white lead base and burnt sienna pigment. The consequent variation from station to station was very noticeable.

And as for GWR wagon grey when applied by wagon repairers at yard 'cripple' sidings - officially mixed from white lead and lampblack pigment supplied but if lampblack was short a handfull of soot was used. Work out the variations that led to !!.

These natural variations that have occured, plus others resulting from differing paint manufacture over the years, wartime problems, and application processes are why model paint makers offer different shades of the 'same' colour as we are trying to capture the 'look' as seen from the lineside but cannot on our models exactly replicate the full size processes.

 

 

No, i'm sorry but both your arguments here are completely wide of the mark i'm afraid for the reasons given.

 

Regards

 

I am aware of all the problems with paints changing over the years.

 

I am pretty sure that the reason Green Arrow was painted such a horrible colour is that the colour swatch that the museum have for LNER Green has changed greatly since it was painted and now looks nothing like true LNER Green. I have seen a swatch prepared with the NRM sample and a stripe of my sample paint alongside it. They differ greatly.

 

There is also no sign of the correct undercoat on the swatch, which is painted directly onto metal, which won't have helped.

 

My sample was taken straight from a freshly opened tin and put in a glass bottle, which was then covered to prevent light getting to it. So any contamination will be minimal. I don't even need to take the lid off to see what colour it is!

 

At some point we have to say that we have got the best possible match for a colour. A freshly opened paint tin, which closely matches locos painted at the time, models painted at the time, a particularly good colour photo from the time plus the recollections of somebody who worked on the LNER, including time in the Doncaster paint shop, is about as good as we are going to get. Unless anybody can think of anything better.

 

That colour is within a shade or two of the Atlantics and the Stirling Single but is nothing like Morayshire and Green Arrow.

 

If anybody wants to argue that Morayshire (when in green) and Green Arrow were painted the right colour, please feel free but you won't convince me.

 

Tony

[Boris]

So enlighten me, why would someone decant paint into a bottle and keep it for posterity?

[Craigw]

So enlighten me, why would someone decant paint into a bottle and keep it for posterity?

 

If you speak nicely to Tony, he might send you some to do your nails with. Would that be a better use for it? 

[byron]

And what happens when a positive "non rivet counter" post is made?

 

Out come the rivet counting mafia! (OK in this case paint mixers).

 

I despair.

 

Mike

[DavidH]

What was it the original poster said about "expert" pronouncing about things at full volume? 

 

Mike got there first ... just :-)

[TheWeatheringMan]

I am aware of all the problems with paints changing over the years.

 

I am pretty sure that the reason Green Arrow was painted such a horrible colour is that the colour swatch that the museum have for LNER Green has changed greatly since it was painted and now looks nothing like true LNER Green. I have seen a swatch prepared with the NRM sample and a stripe of my sample paint alongside it. They differ greatly.

 

There is also no sign of the correct undercoat on the swatch, which is painted directly onto metal, which won't have helped.

 

My sample was taken straight from a freshly opened tin and put in a glass bottle, which was then covered to prevent light getting to it. So any contamination will be minimal. I don't even need to take the lid off to see what colour it is!

 

At some point we have to say that we have got the best possible match for a colour. A freshly opened paint tin, which closely matches locos painted at the time, models painted at the time, a particularly good colour photo from the time plus the recollections of somebody who worked on the LNER, including time in the Doncaster paint shop, is about as good as we are going to get. Unless anybody can think of anything better.

 

That colour is within a shade or two of the Atlantics and the Stirling Single but is nothing like Morayshire and Green Arrow.

 

If anybody wants to argue that Morayshire (when in green) and Green Arrow were painted the right colour, please feel free but you won't convince me.

 

Tony

Hi,

Your sample in a bottle will still have changed shade due to chemical changes within the paint due to its age. The fact that it was from a freshly opened tin makes no difference to this as even unopened the colour change will occur.

The locomotives and models will have suffered colour change for the reasons I outlined above.

Colour reproduction in photograph can never be accurate due to different colour processes.

Recolections of people who worked with the paints are simply, as explained, in no way reliable as to colour accuracy - and I must make it clear that despite my continued involvment in the research into liveries, both railway and road transport and my continuing working now an again with paint, that I include myself in this. I can recall colours pretty close but i'd be an idiot to mix you, say, Rail Blue, totally from memory.

 

What i've tried to explain, with the benefit of professional qualifications in the field, is that in the case of many colours, there is now no known or provable accurate original pattern to copy.

If a colour was from a standard such as the various B.S. ranges then it should be possible to produce that colour today and provided the current manufacturer has matched the colour accuratly (not always the case!) when formulating the modern 'mix' then we can be assured that what we get in the tin is the same as the original.

Where we are faced with the situation described in that a known and proveable colour pattern does not exist then yes we must use what sources of reference we can access - in the way that you have corectly stated - and then having collected that information we must formulate our colour taking into acount both our sources and the knowledge of what changes are likely to have occured.

What we then achieve is the very best that can be acheived after the passage of many years. This I have had to do many times and although in these cases I am happy that the colour we got was as good as likely to be possible, nevertheless I would not be prepared to say I could guarantee absolutely that the colour was 100 per cent - in cases like this it simply isnt possible.

 

In the course of many many conversations over the years I have been asked what the most authentic colour is or what is the best colour to represent such and such a livery.

My answer is always the same.

The correct colour is the colour that looks right to you.

It is totally pointless two people arguing over a livery colour as both people will see the colour differently.

If I were to take one of my colour panels to a club meeting and show a group of people it is a pretty good bet that opinions as to the accuracy of the colour will vary - despite the fact that without knowing it they would be looking at the real thing, subject of course to the issues i've mentioned as to colour change.

What I have always tried to steer people to is to research a colour and try to obtain the most accurate colour as they see it. If another person sees the colour differently and says it looks wrong then put simply that is a fact of life.

In most cases museums and preservationists will strive to get the most accurate result they can but it is inevitable that you and I will then be unlikely to both see the colour the same so might disagree as to its accuracy.

An interesting example of what can happen is the so called 'Chromatic Blue' used for a few locos in the early days of BR Blue livery.

It is often stated that one of the two variants of this colour was metalic. It was not and yet there are (were) people who state they can remember that it was.

Why has this happened. It would be interesting to hear what RMWeb Members think before I reveal the results of the 1970's research on this one.

 

Livery colours are like the Holy Grail - we are forever searching but so many variables intervene that its probable some will never be found.

 

As i've said, what looks right to you is what IS right for you.

Nobody can tell you otherwise, least alone me.

Others with the same training will explain the same reasons but none of us can see a colour with your eyes and brain.

 

Whilst the above might interest some of you i'm sure the rest will now be bored.

 

Regards

[Reorte]

Could you in theory completely analyse the contents of a chip of old paint and work out what's changed to it (are oxidation rates predictable enough - or even how oxidised it would've been originally?) over the years and therefore recreate the exact original paint? I'm not suggesting that anyone actually does it (it really wouldn't be worth the effort), purely an academic question.