King class - pipe work on frames

[Simond]

Good Morning!

 

I'm building a JLTRT / Mitchell King, you can follow progress here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79052-porth-dinllaen-in-0/page-2 from about post 40 onwards.

 

Despite some searching, I'm struggling to find details of the plumbing above the front bogie wheel. There are lots of photos of KGV in York & elsewhere showing it, and this one of King Edward II, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_09_2014/post-1-0-59574400-1409589317.jpg, but they all seem to be of the right hand side of the loco and I have two questions:

 

Was this pipe work there back in 1930 ( because the conduit for the AWS along the valance/hanging plate was a later addition, as were the lubricators on the footplate)?

 

If so, was it replicated on the left of the loco - I believe not?

 

Any help, guidance, or photographs, or pointers to same, would be very welcome!

 

Thanks in advance

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

From a quick check I can't even find it there on either side on any 'King' in the 1950s/very early 1960s but I can check some pre-war postcard views if you like to see if it shows on them?

 

I suspect you are correct in your comment are correct and that it is a conduit for AWS wiring and was therefore not present in ATC days when perhaps the plunger was beneath the cab.

[buffalo]

These big modern things are well outside my comfort zone, but I note that the photos on pp168-9 of Russell vol 2 show the LHS of KEVIII as built with no visible piping anywhere on the frames above the bogie between the front of the cylinder and the buffer beam, whereas one of the RHS of 6027 in 1951 shows pipes much as in your linked photo of 6023. One of the RHS of KG5 ready for it's Baltimore trip only appears to show pipes associated with the Westinghouse gear just in front of the cylinders.

 

I'm sure others will have many more photos than me...

 

Nick

[Simond]

Mike

 

Thanks for your reply. I have a couple of photos from ~ 1938, in GWRJ No3, which show the piping, and one of 6019, in which I can't make it out.

 

There is a photo (434 in Russell) showing the LHS of the "mock-up" in photographic grey, without piping. The photo above also shows no piping on the LHS, of King Edward VIII, in shirt button livery, of course the loco never ran under this name. I conclude no piping on LHS.

 

There is also a photo of KGV in Russell, fitted with Westinghouse pump, so 1927, in which it appears not to have the pipes.

 

Any further info most welcome.

 

Thanks again

Simon

Nick,

 

Thanks, our posts crossed.

 

S

[buffalo]

Hi Simon, yes our posts crossed so I had nothing new to add but agree with your interpretation of the photos.

 

However, if KEVIII never ran with the name, perhaps someone should tell Hornby   See, for example here. I think Russell's caption is about a certain reluctance at Swindon to have that photo circulated after the abdication. She had, of course, been named King Stephen up to 1936.

 

Nick

[TheSignalEngineer]

Looking at O S Nock's The GWR Stars, Castles and Kings, none of the photos seem to have the conduit on the LHS. As for the RHS there are Kings with and without in BR livery and a Castle with conduit in late GW livery, so it's down to dated pictures again.

[Simond]

Hi Simon, yes our posts crossed so I had nothing new to add but agree with your interpretation of the photos.

 

However, if KEVIII never ran with the name, perhaps someone should tell Hornby   See, for example here. I think Russell's caption is about a certain reluctance at Swindon to have that photo circulated after the abdication. She had, of course, been named King Stephen up to 1936.

 

Nick

Thanks Nick - my interpretation of Russell's caption. The abdication was in Dec 36, and the loco was renamed in May 36, so I'm likely wrong.

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

81c

 

Thanks for the photo - there's a rather nice casting in the kit. Just need to decide whether to use it!

 

Best

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Right back with the magnifying glass - rather different results I'm afraid (or is that relieved?) to say.

 

1. I can't find a single example of any engine with pipes/conduit in that area on the left hand side (and oddly really clear left hand side views seem more frequent than right hand side views!).

 

2. The pipe seems to be there - but is often hidden in shadowy areas - on the right hand side in all post 1948 views.

 

3. I have found it (on 6005) in one definitely pre-war view; the area is in deep shadow in every other pre-war view except those of 6000 in its early days when it doesn't appear to be there (as already suggested by Nick). I have also found one, slightly clearer, pre-war view of 6028 in which I can't see the pipe - not exactly the same as saying it isn't there alas.

 

4. I happen to have a fairly clear postcard view of 'King Stephen' but it is of the left hand side.

[Simond]

Thanks Nick - my interpretation of Russell's caption. The abdication was in Dec 36, and the loco was renamed in May 36, so I'm likely wrong.

Best

Simon

Re KEVIII I'm wrong for sure - photo in Kenneth Leech's book shows 6029 with KEVIII nameplates on 1/11/51

 

Interim conclusion re the piping:

 

I think all evidence to date suggests no piping on LHS, and pretty much everything else says that it was fitted on the RHS on all of them (only not visible on 6010 in Leech) from at latest 1938, but didn't appear to be there on KGV in 1927. I've been trawling through the GWRJ's that I have, looking for an early 30's photo that confirms one way or the other, so far unsuccessfully.

 

Thanks to you all for your help

 

Simon

[phil_sutters]

Good Morning!

 

I'm building a JLTRT / Mitchell King, you can follow progress here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79052-porth-dinllaen-in-0/page-2 from about post 40 onwards.

 

Despite some searching, I'm struggling to find details of the plumbing above the front bogie wheel. There are lots of photos of KGV in York & elsewhere showing it, and this one of King Edward II, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_09_2014/post-1-0-59574400-1409589317.jpg, but they all seem to be of the right hand side of the loco and I have two questions:

 

Was this pipe work there back in 1930 ( because the conduit for the AWS along the valance/hanging plate was a later addition, as were the lubricators on the footplate)?

 

If so, was it replicated on the left of the loco - I believe not?

 

Any help, guidance, or photographs, or pointers to same, would be very welcome!

 

Thanks in advance

Simon

Rex Conway's GWR Album has some very clear shots of Kings in the 1920s & 30s. Only one shows the pipework I think you mean, on King Stephen. It has only been dated as prior to 1936, when the name changed. A clue may be found to date the photo as there was clearly an 'event' in progress with shiny locos from the Southern Railway & LNER visible behind 6029. There are several shots of the left sides of Kings and none show the pipework. 

[Coach bogie]

Rex Conway's GWR Album has some very clear shots of Kings in the 1920s & 30s. Only one shows the pipework I think you mean, on King Stephen. It has only been dated as prior to 1936, when the name changed. A clue may be found to date the photo as there was clearly an 'event' in progress with shiny locos from the Southern Railway & LNER visible behind 6029. There are several shots of the left sides of Kings and none show the pipework. 

 

It was at Liverpool for the the L&M centenary. 6029 was based at Agecroft in Salford during this period. I do wonder what the locals thought seeing a King in Manchester Exchange station?

 

Mike Wiltshire

[phil_sutters]

It was at Liverpool for the the L&M centenary. 6029 was based at Agecroft in Salford during this period. I do wonder what the locals thought seeing a King in Manchester Exchange station?

 

Mike Wiltshire

Thanks for pinpointing the event, Mike.

[Simond]

Weird....

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=derby&item=422

 

I think we can conclude that in 1930 the pipe work was present, and on the right hand side only

 

Thanks for the contributions

 

Best

Simon

[Froxfield2012]

Nothing really early enough, I'm afraid, but here is 6019 in 1952/53.  Not one my father's best efforts (early in his career as a railway photographer!) and unedited as yet.  Despite that one can see an absence of pipework, except for a small tube running near the steam pipe (I have added a crop of this area).  That it is likely not an artefact of the camera seems to be shown by the crop of 6001 from June 1951.  Not all the King shots from this period have this particular pipe in evidence!

 

Richard

[Simond]

Thanks for this the photo's great. I had to look for the "not so white" lamp!

 

The pipe work in question is under the footplate, above the rear bogie wheel, on the other side, and quite a bit bigger.

 

This one looks like a lubricator pipe - I think they'd all converted to mechanicals by the 50's but it's out of my period, so I could easily be corrected here.

 

Best

Simon

[Froxfield2012]

I hope you don't mind me returning with a few more images.  These are taken from my Chapman prints and one of them has been put up here before.  This is the first image of 6003.  First the whole side view and then a crop as you can't really see the detail in the small version of the whole print.  Then there are two of KGV taken in Baltimore in 1927 showing left and right hand sides.  These have been published before but (since I have an original print) I am able to scan and crop to clarify details.  Finally, I couldn't resist putting up a shot of 6019 at Hatton on a Paddington to Birmingham train.  This print is dated 22 September 1931, although this is the date of the PRINT and not the date the shot was taken.

 

Richard

 

PS Edited because I just noticed the "bowler hat" in the cab!

[Coach bogie]

Be careful if replicating the pipework on the B&O shot as some of it is for the Westinghouse air brake system fitted for the USA visit, removed on return to the UK.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Froxfield2012]

Agreed Mike (Coach bogie) but I really included that side because it also shows the piping (in black above the bogie) to which I thought Simon referred to in the original query.

 

Richard 

[Simond]

Marvellous!

 

I think I've seen the photo of 6003 with "Jane" before, perhaps in MRJ, as part of their project to build her, very clear, no pipes! And neither are there any below Britannia's feet.

 

I'd not seen either of the Baltimore photos before. I don't think it's a bowler hat. It looks like Kenneth Leech's trilby. I wonder...

 

At least most of the piping under the footplate & over the bogie wheels on the right hand side (which is that to which I was referring) appears on other locos. It seems to have been there in most of the photos I've seen, and we now have dates right back to the earliest Kings, so I think we've got good evidence.

 

Thanks again for posting the photos! I don't suppose you've got any that prove or disprove the "black firebox top" theory (see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91571-gw-firebox-tops-black-or-green/) ?

 

 

Kind regards

Simon

[Froxfield2012]

Sorry, nothing relevant to the "black top" theory that I can find.  Even the shots taken from the signal box don't really show the top of the firebox.  I can only say that I spent far too many hours in Southcote and Oxford Road boxes in the fifties and early sixties (as well as looking down from the coal stage in Reading MPD) and I can't remember black firebox tops!  I don't think it likely myself.  Why take two cans of paint up to the top of the loco when one would do and you need green anyway?  That is not to say that some joker with an artistic flair who ran out of green paint didn't use black at sometime.   This was after all the GWR and BR(W)!  But the sensible money must be on green firebox tops.

Nor do I recall any models of GWR locos with black firebox tops at the Reading Model Engineers.  The largest fleet of GWR locos I remember was on Charlie Cooper's garden railway in Tilehurst.  Although his handbuilt locos were occasionally accused of being somewhat "crude" none had a black firebox top so far as I remember and (again, as far as I recall) he was never "called out" for that omission by the rivet counters of the day!

 

 

Richard

[unclebobkt]

Sorry, nothing relevant to the "black top" theory that I can find.  Even the shots taken from the signal box don't really show the top of the firebox.  I can only say that I spent far too many hours in Southcote and Oxford Road boxes in the fifties and early sixties (as well as looking down from the coal stage in Reading MPD) and I can't remember black firebox tops!  I don't think it likely myself.  Why take two cans of paint up to the top of the loco when one would do and you need green anyway?  That is not to say that some joker with an artistic flair who ran out of green paint didn't use black at sometime.   This was after all the GWR and BR(W)!  But the sensible money must be on green firebox tops.

Nor do I recall any models of GWR locos with black firebox tops at the Reading Model Engineers.  The largest fleet of GWR locos I remember was on Charlie Cooper's garden railway in Tilehurst.  Although his handbuilt locos were occasionally accused of being somewhat "crude" none had a black firebox top so far as I remember and (again, as far as I recall) he was never "called out" for that omission by the rivet counters of the day!

 

 

Richard

 

     With all of this correspondance regarding 'King's.' pipework etc. etc.  whatever happened to that largish model of a 'King.' that I can remember seeing positioned in its glass case near to Paddington's Platform One?

  Memory suggests that it was built by a South African.

  Memory also suggests that if one put a coin in the slot then a hidden & electric motor would turn the coupled wheels and one could see the internal valve-gear at work.

      

[Froxfield2012]

     With all of this correspondance regarding 'King's.' pipework etc. etc.  whatever happened to that largish model of a 'King.' that I can remember seeing positioned in its glass case near to Paddington's Platform One?

  Memory suggests that it was built by a South African.

  Memory also suggests that if one put a coin in the slot then a hidden & electric motor would turn the coupled wheels and one could see the internal valve-gear at work.

      

I remember that too!  I think I remember that it went to the South Kensington Science Museum and then to York where I seem to recall seeing it?  In any event, I also seem to remember that in all the moves someone put a substantial dent (in one of the cylinders?) during all the moves.  Perhaps others can confirm.  The thing that always amazed me was the complete set of miniature tools that went along with the model.