Whitby & East Cleveland

[russ p]

Hi Derek, For me I have just started a test layout in the form of Kiltonthorpe Junction in order to get my modelling skills back. Time period is 1958 to 1964, although I am currently using the earlier track layout as I don't know when the diamond crossing was removed. After the closure of the Boosbeck to Hutton Junction section in 1960 the signalling at Brotton was modified and the Kilton mines branch was worked as one siding with the remaining line used for wagon storage. The Boosbeck pick used the other line. Initially my test track will be a sixteen foot long diorama. I primary model in O gauge but my test layout is EM gauge. I started with C& L but have switched to Exactoscale using the thicker sleepers. Casting sand seems to be a good material to simulate ash ballast. I follow the Blackgill layout as an inspiration.

Modelling a prototype can be very pleasure and frustrating too.

Going back to your question regarding the three way turnout at Whitby, the drawings do not give the turnout types. Sometimes I use the NER white prints in combination with photos to estimate what they are. This is what I did for Kiltonthorpe Junc, so t's scale length.

Regards

Alan

I hope you have a Clayton and heljans non boilered 27?

I remember an old boy at Thornaby telling me about a fatal incident at Hutton Gate level crossing where the guisborough pick up hit a milkfloat and the train was hauled by a 27 or as he called it a Birmingham

[Guest G567281]

I hope you have a Clayton and heljans non boilered 27?

I remember an old boy at Thornaby telling me about a fatal incident at Hutton Gate level crossing where the guisborough pick up hit a milkfloat and the train was hauled by a 27 or as he called it a Birmingham

I hope you have a Clayton and heljans non boilered 27?

I remember an old boy at Thornaby telling me about a fatal incident at Hutton Gate level crossing where the guisborough pick up hit a milkfloat and the train was hauled by a 27 or as he called it a Birmingham

I remember seeing a Clayton but I do not recall seeing the non boilered Sulzer even though I history tells me they ran out of Thornaby. My uncle drove A8's out of Saltburn prior to being transferred to Darlington in 1958. I used to meet him when he was driving Sulzer Type 2's, D5159, etc on demolition trains. Removing the Priestcroft branch. His favorite line was the Esk Valley.

 

I have heard the story regarding the Guisborough pick -up.

 

I enjoyed a visit to the Guisborough Museum last year with respect the station. I have subsequently donated a copy of the NER layout drawing. Scale 1" equals 33 feet.

 

The Clayton and Sulzer Type 3 will make an appearance eventually.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[russ p]

There was a nice picture in a magazine a few months back of a 27 at South bank. There is a bit of 25/0 footage on here at north skelton

 

http://www.nefacalfilms.co.uk/2014/01/13/week-commencing-13th-january/

[Derekstuart]

Alan

I am going to have to look them up on maps/ Wikipedia- I've heard of them but can't picture it.

 

Whitby 3 way: would your drawing be accurate enough to use as a template to design by using it as a backdrop? I know I am NEARLY there, but something still isn't right as road 2 should have (IIRC) about a 30ft straight section which my design has to half that. Close enough for most, but it'll bug me if I don't resolve it.

 

I've used bing maps to draw in the existing track and then work backwards, also making reference to 1928 OS.

 

Russ: If you mean that to me- potash mine- then thanks, but I specifically need to throw in all the elements I am likely to come across for Whitby- estuary walls, wharf etc. It's more the scenic side I am bothered about than developing the engineering skills to MAKE things. But thanks for the suggestion... I will of course be looking at any photos I can find as I didn't know there was a mine there.

[Derekstuart]

I didn't realise 27's came over there. That's good as I was looking for an excuse for one of those Heljan units (though I would prefer finding an excuse for a 26, the 27 will do... I suppose a 26 could be on loan or working an unusual diagram and got stuck there...)

I have only just started collecting again, mostly DMU's 101,105.108 together with a V2 and a 40,45 (1co co1 is good for testing pointwork...)

 

I am sorely tempted to pick up a Lima 156 and see if I can brush up on my engineering skills to have a go at a decent underframe.

[Derekstuart]

Sorry for 3rd post in a row

 

Is it me or is this forum really unstable, sometimes requiring 3 attempts to post. It doesn't let you paste in anything- specifically URLs and when you cancel the attach link box when it doesn't work, you can't close it and have to F5.

 

Anyone else have this problem?

[russ p]

Heljan actually do a teesside specific 27 and i have a mate who may be selling one but its 1960s not late 80s

I will be experimenting with dock walls soon on my Cley on Sea layout.

Did you know that in the 19th century there was an ironstone mine opposite Bog Hall on the riverside

[Derekstuart]

No I didn't know that, Russ.

 

Speaking of BH. I remember my Dad telling me how the Esk used to be a mud bath at low tide and I couldn't really picture it. Well I found a photo last week of the mud flats between Endeavour Wharf and the dockyard on the other side and I didn't realise it was totally "dry" (term used loosely) at low tide. Where exactly was the ironstone mine then?

I know the photos of Grosmont processing plant are very  impressive indeed. It's a shame that you can't see the full detail because of the quality of film in that era. It's quite hard to imagine when you're there in the car park under the tree canopy.

[russ p]

I think the ironstone mine was somewhere where the boats are stored today. I don't think it was open very long but it was a shaft mine,it is referred to in one of Simon chapmans excellent books on the Cleveland mines, are you local to the area as Guisborough book shop and two bookshops in Whitby sell them.

Not many down here in Norfolk!

[Derekstuart]

No, I live near Milton Keynes- so not much closer than you!

But I do try to go up there every now and then. And to help, work is looking at opening a branch on Teeside.... and muggins here would be in charge of setting it up so I would have a lot of chance.

 

BTW thinking of the comments I've read here, I think my 'trial run' should be a prototypical layout. It isn't such a big deal to miss the estuary wall and I can do this on a 'plank'. West Cliff has been done, Sandsend would be nice but it needs that big viaduct and learning to make a viaduct won't help me, the same as Staithes. Robin Hoods bay was once done, but I think a long time back, it is still standing AND there is a chap here who knows a bit about it.

 

I also wonder about a nice simple one- Prospect Hill junction. No major buildings, only 2 (or 3 perhaps) points, 1 signal box and 1 bridge. The rest is vegetation. Would be enough to practice but without delaying Whitby until I'm retired. Opinions?

[Guest G567281]

No, I live near Milton Keynes- so not much closer than you!

But I do try to go up there every now and then. And to help, work is looking at opening a branch on Teeside.... and muggins here would be in charge of setting it up so I would have a lot of chance.

 

BTW thinking of the comments I've read here, I think my 'trial run' should be a prototypical layout. It isn't such a big deal to miss the estuary wall and I can do this on a 'plank'. West Cliff has been done, Sandsend would be nice but it needs that big viaduct and learning to make a viaduct won't help me, the same as Staithes. Robin Hoods bay was once done, but I think a long time back, it is still standing AND there is a chap here who knows a bit about it.

 

I also wonder about a nice simple one- Prospect Hill junction. No major buildings, only 2 (or 3 perhaps) points, 1 signal box and 1 bridge. The rest is vegetation. Would be enough to practice but without delaying Whitby until I'm retired. Opinions?

Go for it. It would be quite high if you model the grade and cuttings correctly. The white footbridge at the viaduct would make a scenic break on the Scarborough line. The signal box diagrams are available on-line. I can give you prototype dimensions for the track layout and some poor photos showing the track and signalling in place after closure, including the burnt out signal box. Plus you could use it with Whitby later on. Or start with the gas works, but they were gone in your chosen era. Bog Hall Junction and carriage sidings including turntable. So many options. Glaisdale is quite simply. On my October, 1972 trip the box was still in use. Two Met-Camm's passed each other and the Whitby pick-up was hauled by an EE Type 3. All in blue livery with the freight loco still with its pre-TOPs number. Alan

[Worsdell forever]

I think the ironstone mine was somewhere where the boats are stored today. I don't think it was open very long but it was a shaft mine,it is referred to in one of Simon chapmans excellent books on the Cleveland mines, are you local to the area as Guisborough book shop and two bookshops in Whitby sell them.

Not many down here in Norfolk!

No Ironstone mine in Whitby, they were at Grosmont, Beck Hole and Glaisdale.

 

There was one short lived one near Sandsend and more the further north you get.

[russ p]

No Ironstone mine in Whitby, they were at Grosmont, Beck Hole and Glaisdale.

 

There was one short lived one near Sandsend and more the further north you get.

I'm pretty certain that in one of my books possibly the one about the Grosmont mines it makes a reference to a shaft near Bog Hall, I'll see if I can find the book over the weekend

[russ p]

I think this is the one

 

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/mines/Whitehall-Pit-Iron-Mine/

 

I can't find my mining books still packed away after a house move over 3 years ago!

The location on the map is not exactly where I remember reading about it

[Derekstuart]

For anyone who is interested, I bough 'half' the C&L stand today (or at least it felt like it).

 

I armed myself with some 3 hole chairs, rail, plywood, cutters, various fishplates, a turnout kit.....

 

First stop: Make a single panel of 60ft track... OK, so not bad but would have been better if I had used a proper steel edge (but it was only a test piece anyway and already lessons learned).

 

I am suffering a breakage rate of about 40% threading the fragile chairs onto the rail. Yes, I have the rail the right way up and yes I've filed the edge to make it easier.

 

Is it worth the hassle to handmake track? I shall soon know. I like the ply base points and it looks silly to me to have ply points and plastic track.

 

I think I can do this for the short test track for this "mini" layout (12ft total track give or take) but for Whitby? That's about 120ft of track all in. Good game, good game.


Q: Heard the one about the idiot who tried to handmake 100ft of P4 track?
A: On a postcard.

[Paul Cram]

For anyone who is interested, I bough 'half' the C&L stand today (or at least it felt like it).

 

I armed myself with some 3 hole chairs, rail, plywood, cutters, various fishplates, a turnout kit.....

 

First stop: Make a single panel of 60ft track... OK, so not bad but would have been better if I had used a proper steel edge (but it was only a test piece anyway and already lessons learned).

 

I am suffering a breakage rate of about 40% threading the fragile chairs onto the rail. Yes, I have the rail the right way up and yes I've filed the edge to make it easier.

 

Is it worth the hassle to handmake track? I shall soon know. I like the ply base points and it looks silly to me to have ply points and plastic track.

 

I think I can do this for the short test track for this "mini" layout (12ft total track give or take) but for Whitby? That's about 120ft of track all in. Good game, good game.

 

 

Q: Heard the one about the idiot who tried to handmake 100ft of P4 track?

A: On a postcard.

Been there and done that.

[Derekstuart]

Thank you, Paul, for that piece of enlightenment. I shall rest easier tonight knowing that.

[Guest G567281]

For anyone who is interested, I bough 'half' the C&L stand today (or at least it felt like it).

 

I armed myself with some 3 hole chairs, rail, plywood, cutters, various fishplates, a turnout kit.....

 

First stop: Make a single panel of 60ft track... OK, so not bad but would have been better if I had used a proper steel edge (but it was only a test piece anyway and already lessons learned).

 

I am suffering a breakage rate of about 40% threading the fragile chairs onto the rail. Yes, I have the rail the right way up and yes I've filed the edge to make it easier.

 

Is it worth the hassle to handmake track? I shall soon know. I like Hthe ply base points and it looks silly to me to have ply points and plastic track.

 

I think I can do this for the short test track for this "mini" layout (12ft total track give or take) but for Whitby? That's about 120ft of track all in. Good game, good game.

Q: Heard the one about the idiot who tried to handmake 100ft of P4 track?

A: On a postcard.

How re you making out with the chairs Derek ?. Do you have a plan for the mini- layout yet ?.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[MarkC]

Hi,

 

Different Alun, I was the one that posted about 107s in the "other" thread.

 

Subscribing to this out of interest, not sure I will be able to contribute very much, and also I want to see what happens with this project of yours - will be quite remarkable.

 

For now, I'm sure you've seen the disused stations entry for West Cliff (with a fine picture of an early 3 car 101) and the other stations on what became the Teesside to Whitby line. Also a 104 and a later 101 at Guisborough, and possibly my favourite place on earth, here and here for 108s and another later 101 at Robin Hoods Bay. Is this the class 03 on a demolition train?

 

Good luck,

 

Alun

Alun, I'm pretty sure that that 03 photo shows the very last goods working over the S & W.

[It's Sadie!]

Hello,

 

To greatly reduce breakage rates on C&L chairs just very lightly put a scalpel blade into the opening for the rail and tease apart slightly. Too much pressure and you'll go through the whole chair. My breakage rate is down to about 1 in 10 now.

 

Regards

 

Sade

[Derekstuart]

Hello Alan & Sade

 

Chairs: I found the easiest way is to add an extra 1/2 inch onto a length and then file it to a much longer taper. I am still intending to lay each panel as 30/45/60ft as per prototype (as opposed to just cutting a notch every 120/180/240mm). But I am threading all the chairs on one length and will then cut it into sections when I'm ready to lay them. I have found that I can make several feet of track with not a single breakage- and then break the next three in a row. I did try the scalpel trick but I found this weakened the chair and I wasn't sure if it would grip the rail properly. I suppose it's a case that we all need to find a system that works for us.

 

So far I've made several test pieces on straight, curve, curved with checkrail etc- (using the 1 chair alternating between rail and checkrail as I haven't yet got the double chairs).

 

 

In respect of the mini layout- yes, I've got that and am starting to build the boards. It's got approx 12ft of track, 3 points and all aspects of the scenic parts that I will need for Whitby. But also, to test scenery rather than track, I am making a 9" by 2' "plank" to test several of the things that I have learned from people here (and elsewhere). I can do that at the same time as building this small layout as I should be finished the plank before I am ready to put scenic items in the layout.

Now I just have to figure out re-wheeling things to test the track. I built a OO turnout using spare parts, which worked fine- I would like to test P4 track a bit more before going further.

[russ p]

Alun, I'm pretty sure that that 03 photo shows the very last goods working over the S & W.

The 03 picture does appear to be a freight working. There are pictures and a film of the last ever train in 1967 with 03 D2051which was a special for demolition contrators ,the actual demolition of the line was done without trains

[Steve Taylor]

If C&L chairs behave like Exactoscale's equivalents .... then a slight scalloping in of the rail foot with a file to take the edge off will suffice, then feed them on with a lateral twist to engage one side of the jaw slightly ahead of the other and you will be fine.

[MarkC]

The 03 picture does appear to be a freight working. There are pictures and a film of the last ever train in 1967 with 03 D2051which was a special for demolition contrators ,the actual demolition of the line was done without trains

Absolutely. The film is 'A sentimental Journey' - there are a few YooChoob links for it to be found.

[YK 50A]

Absolutely. The film is 'A sentimental Journey' - there are a few YooChoob links for it to be found.

 

Indeed, there is a link to it on page 1 of this thread! 

 

Alun