GW early loco lining

[johnarcher]

This is something I have been a little puzzled about in looking at various possibilities for future modelling.. The GWR.org livery details don't really go before 1900, but I thought pretty well all locomotives pre-WW1 were lined. Yet the pictures of the prototype 3501 class illustrating the new 7mm kit on the Broad Gauge Society site (pre-1892 therefore) show no sign of any lining at all.

Also I saw a blog on building this kit which stated that they would have been fully lined, Indian red frames etc.

No doubt the answer is in GW Way, but I can't buy a copy unless I really decide to have a go at this period in future modelling, so a quick answer from one of the many people out there with better prototype knowledge than I have would be helpful and interesting.

 

Thank you

[The Stationmaster]

Don't forget that many early phographic emulsions were 'colour blind' to some colours so it is quite possible that lining might not show up, or not show up in certain lighting conditions.

[buffalo]

Yes, the answer is in GWW and, in a less up-to-date form in RCTS Part 1 or the RCTS Livery Register for the GWR. It isn't simple, remember there were sixty odd years of the GWR before 1900 and there were many livery variations. The situation is made more complex because for most of these years the liveries used at Swindon and Wolverhampton differed quite widely. There was always some form of lining from at least the mid 1840s, but much variation in colour and where it was applied. At the time the 3501 tanks were built (1885) boiler bands and lining were black with a narrow orange line either side. The orange is rarely seen on photos because, as Mike said, contemporary film emulsions simply did not record it and so treated it much like red. There are some other photos of 3501 tanks that show a hint of lining, and lining is seen on many contemporary side tanks. As in later years, lining on saddle tanks is restricted to cabs or bunkers or both.

 

Some earlier linings do show up better on photos. The black with white edging and pea-green/straw varieties are usually much more visible. See, for example the photo of a Caesar class 0-6-0 goods engine on the BGS home page. This photo probably mid-1860s or maybe a bit later.

 

Nick

Edited November 30, 2014 by buffalo

[johnarcher]

Thank you both. I am surprised, as there are two good clear shots of the 3501 side tanks, and I would have thought that there would be some trace of at least the black line. There's also a good clear shot of ex-SDR Prince I found online with no sign of lining on the bunker sides.  On this 517 picture, however,(http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/solihull/gwrs1611.jpg) the black line does show, though it's pretty faint, but the others show nothing at all. 

Still, I suppose it's as you say, and the limitations of early photography are to blame (unless the official painting policy was not always applied everywhere?).

(I'm sure I remember an article quite a long time ago in MRJ by Guy Williams who did not line a loco, an earlyish 517 I think, because lining being so inconspicuous in photos he felt that was a reasonable representation?)

Maybe I sound like someone trying to avoid lining (as you can see on the left I have avoided it in recent years in 00n3) - possibly because I am, but also I do often think that model lining does at times seem more conspicuous than the original, unless it is done very finely.

Edited November 30, 2014 by johnarcher

[MikeOxon]

..........................Maybe I sound like someone trying to avoid lining (as you can see on the left I have avoided it in recent years in 00n3) - possibly because I am, but also I do often think that model lining does at times seem more conspicuous than the original, unless it is done very finely.

I agree that model lining can be too conspicuous but omitting it altogether misses a lot of the 'character' of19th-century engines. 

 

Although it may not show up in photographs, it was there in reality and I think we should aim to restore the colourfulness of the period in our models. 

 

You may like to look at my posts on making your own GWR lining in my blog at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1405/entry-12905-home-made-lining-lettering-1/

 

Mike

[buffalo]

The photos of the 3501 tanks are quite clear and full-page copies of these and others were printed in BGS Broadsheet No 68. In only two or three cases is there even a hint of the black line close to the edge of the tanks and none of the orange. Equally, there is no hint of the black edging or red or orange lining that would be expected near the edge of the frames (this may however have appeared somewhat later). Certainly, the boiler bands on all of the photos are not lined. It is certainly possible to find examples of unlined or partially lined engines, particularly tanks and many of these do not have lined boiler bands.

 

Perhaps a better photo of Prince in Geof Sheppard's Broad Gauge Engines taken fairly soon after almagamation of the SDR with the GWR does clearly show lining on the bunker side, but not on the cab side sheet.

 

As to 517s, the John Copsey article in GWRJ 74-5 shows almost every combination. Most have some lining, some have difficult to see lining and maybe one or two have none. Boiler band lining is often missing. I don't remember the Guy Williams' article you mention but I doubt if it was a very early example as until the 1890s most of the class had Wolverhampton livery with very visible pale lining. I see the point about lining not being visible in photos, but red or brown wheels and frames aren't visible in most photos either

 

My main concern with model lining is that only the very best model painters appear to be able to produce something near a scale ¹/₈" line (0.04mm in 4mm scale) and so much of what we see is just gross.

 

Nick

Edited November 30, 2014 by buffalo

[johnarcher]

Thanks again to the last two. Mike, I did see your posts, it seems a very good idea, if an old Luddite like me could get his head around the technology it is probably the only way i could produce anything like scale lines.

Thanks for the full answer Buffalo, I wonder if part of the problem is fading of 19th century paints, which might also make lining less clear - so over-width full-strength colour lines do tend to look, as you put it, gross.

I must look again at Mike's method, it would make thin lines with toned-down colours possible I suppose.

Or there's always these occasional unlined engines!

[wagonman]

I suggest you apply full lining to your model, then photograph it in B&W with a heavy blue filter over the lens – and then see what it looks like. I doubt you'll detect much lining...

[Il Grifone]

Theoretically the limit of resolution of the human eye is around 1/250th inch*, which means the orange lines should be not be visible in 4mm scale and small photos. The fact that they are suggests that it has something to do with the contrast of the intense orange colour. The green lines tend to disappear into the black despite being four times the width.

 

*In my case considerably less!

 

Red/brown frames would have appeared darker due to the insensitivity of then current emulsions to red. The two photos of no.101 that I'm aware of are unclear on this (but seem lighter than black). A 1905 date for conversion to coal firing (as the ubiquitous model portrays) would suggest red/brown but does anyone know?

[johnarcher]

To resurrect this thread, if I may (still trying to get out of lining), GWR.org says many tank engines were unlined after about 1904-6.

 

Obviously this might happen with repainting when rebuilt, but how often were engines repainted otherwise? I believe about every 10 years (pre-WW1) for coaches, is it similar for loco overhaul and repaint?

[Miss Prism]

 

907 is recently out of the works, with its new 3-segment tank. The new tank and its fittings are clean and polished. There is barely detectable lining on the cab, but all the parts of the loco not affected by the new tank fitting have not been repainted, and are as unclean as they were when entering the works. It has a new toolbox though, which is freshly painted.

 

Buffalo 1042 also has a 3-segment tank, but all the loco is reasonably clean, with lining on the cab and bunker. The brass dome and safety valve cover are beginning to tarnish. It's old toolbox is not very clean, but its brass lock is.

 

Buffalo 1572 is very clean, even with its old 5-segment tank, with lining on its cab and bunker.

 

In all cases, there is no lining on the tanks, and there are no insignia.

 

These picture were obviously taken at approximately the same date, but I can't put a precise finger to it. I wish Buffalo was still around to provide a more informed opinion. My best guess is c 1902-6.

 

Unlike coaches, whose repaint periods are, at least to some extent, predictable, the same cannot be said for locos, because they were in and out of the works so often having various mods done. Generally, it was only the bits that had been replaced that were painted. If bits didn't need repainting, they weren't.

 

Where locos were being given radical changes, like saddle to pannier conversions, they were at first given the full monty, with full lining, insignia, polished domes and safety valve covers and even polished handrails. This full monty phase quickly fell from favour before WWI (too expensive), and WWI saw an end to such treatment. When superheater mods came in for example, 1920s and 30s, it was often only the new smokeboxes that were given a fresh coat of paint.

 

The above is for predominantly non-passenger small tanks. Larger, and newer, tanks, and larger express engines, were usually, but not always, given more elaborate treatments.

 

Our RTR manufacturers would have us believe Swindon was a toy shop, full of gaudy things.

 

It wasn't.

 

 

 

[MikeOxon]

 

 

......................... There is barely detectable lining on the cab,.....

 

..........................and WWI saw an end to such treatment.

 

 

Your photos demonstrate very well the near invisibility of the lining at a small scale.  I fear most of my models are 'gaudier' than these

 

I can't help being reminded of Wilfred Owen's line about the First World War: "Now men will go content with what we spoiled." (poem - 'Strange Meeting')

[johnarcher]

Gaudy? Yes, OK I know about the limitations of Edwardian photography re colour reproduction, but much 4mm (transfer)  lining does seem a bit much. Maybe it is mainly the orange line, is it ever a scale 1/8" (I think that's right), or maybe the full-strength colours?

Anyway I have always fancied the pre-WW1 scene, but had no faith that, at my time of life, I could still develop the skill with a bow-pen to produce lining of the subtlety photos suggest.

So the suggestion that some (or many) tank engines were unlined after c1905 (especially, but not only, saddle tanks) is interesting.

I take the point about partial repainting at rebuild time, but even 517's sometimes managed ten years or so between rebuilds, presumably a repaint would become necessary at some point, as with coaches?

[Miss Prism]

...but even 517's sometimes managed ten years or so between rebuilds, presumably a repaint would become necessary at some point, as with coaches?

 

Possibly.

 

There's plenty of pics showing 517s in a cleaned state (and some grubby ones!). Offhand though I can think of only one post-WWI pic where a 517 has had a non-rebuild repaint.

 

I can't detect any lining on these, although they all seem to have had repaints at some stage:

 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0229/4449/products/016_cd1dee61-3e27-411f-8f40-12ace22ce542_1024x1024.jpg?v=1504083753

 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0229/4449/products/832_29089e68-6ea2-4c91-b248-be4b0595708d_1024x1024.jpg?v=1504083753

 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0229/4449/products/828_lake_724a3bd7-f70b-45cd-a926-a31f1d79dc9d_1024x1024.jpg?v=1503587677

[johnarcher]

Yes, those are some of the pictures I was looking at, I know lining can show only faintly but those are good clear pictures and I can see no sign of it at all.

Incidentally, from your superior knowledge can you put a date on the picture of 832 based on the lettering on the end of the van?

It looks like 16" GW to me, but I think you could sometimes get that where space was restricted even in the 25" lettering period?

 

The picture of 1467 is presumably pre-1908 when she got the long wheelbase conversion?

Edited September 6, 2017 by johnarcher

[Miss Prism]

Yes, that is 16" G W lettering on the cattle wagon next to 832, but I think it was used because 25" could not fit the space, so that doesn't really help on dating the pic. I think It could be anywhere between say 1910-22. The style of the driver's cap and the riveted smokebox wrapper would seem to indicate it's toward the end of that possible date range, although the polished dome would be unusual at such a later date, unless it's a shed pet. Kensington Addison Road, if I'm not mistaken.

 

1467, yes, pre-1908.

 

828 has a new Bars I or II crimson toplight behind it, so probably 1913? The loco feels a bit green to me, rather than a 1919 'crimson special'. Note however the painted dome, and the modern lubricator pipe cover, so this could be c 1920 with an unlined crimson loco with a newly repainted (say Bars I) toplight behind it.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Miss Prism

[johnarcher]

Thanks for those points.

1467 is presumably between 1904 (R4 boiler) and 1908, so ties in with the idea that some tank engines came out unlined from about 1904/5?

 

By the way, while on 517's again, does anyone know of any pictures anywhere of 216? There's one in the GWRJ articles, but not a very clear or close one. I'm interested as she was a Leominster engine in 1914.

Edited September 6, 2017 by johnarcher

[Miss Prism]

Yes, it would seem so. Note that 1467 has a short thick chimney, which came in after the tall thick chimney, which in turn replaced the tall thinner one, which replaced the original Wolverhampton slightly-tapered roll top one. These chimney changes took place over just a few years. Maybe Holcroft was tweaking blastpipe dimensions at the time. I don't know.

 

I think it is increasingly difficult to generalise about 1910-10 liveries. Change ruled - and 'small tanks' is a relative notion. The 517s seem to start losing their lining from an early stage, and they were definitely regarded as passenger engines, but the small Prairies (which we would now regard as 'small tanks') were regarded as large tanks in those times, and were apparently fully-lined when they appeared in 1906. The 4540 works grey portrait has full lining, but was that rolled out in production?

 

Questions, questions.

 

There is little logic in any of this.

[johnarcher]

The site for the three pictures you linked to a few posts ago (which I can't find again) also had a shot of 551 (do you have it?) on which I think I can discern a trace of bunker lining but no sign of any on the tanks - a partial repaint after alterations, as suggested above? Judging by the tall chimney that should be a fairly early one I think.

[Miss Prism]

The site for the three pictures you linked to a few posts ago (which I can't find again) also had a shot of 551 (do you have it?) on which I think I can discern a trace of bunker lining but no sign of any on the tanks - a partial repaint after alterations, as suggested above? Judging by the tall chimney that should be a fairly early one I think.

 

Ah yes, I think I've seen that 551 pic before somewhere, but can't remember where. I don't have a copy. Perhaps Lee Marsh has decided to drop it from his 517 range.

 

One of the real problems in this area is the relative insensivity of the b&w emulsions to the red end, which is well known, but the insensitivity to chrome orange is total. (And the black lining is often not particularly distinguishable from the bodywork dark green, unless the loco is very clean.)

 

Even as late as 1925, on a sparkling new and clean 4082 (Her Majesty is on the footplate!), the red route colour disc shows reasonably well, but the chrome orange is rendered invisible:

 

[johnarcher]

Here's the 551 picture (The management please remove if this is any sort of breach of copyright).

I think there is a hint of black line (no orange visible as you say) on the upper edge of the bunker, but I can see nothing on the tanks.

So knowing that some lesser engines were unlined at this period one has to judge if it is faint or absent?

Edited September 7, 2017 by johnarcher

[Edwardian]

Here's the 551 picture (The management please remove if this is any sort of breach of copyright).

I think there is a hint of black line (no orange visible as you say) on the upper edge of the bunker, but I can see nothing on the tanks.

So knowing that some lesser engines were unlined at this period one has to judge if it is faint or absent?

 

I believe I can see the orange-black-orange lining around the extreme edge of the tanks, just inboard of the top and bottom rivets.

 

The lining is clearest along the top edge, and at the bottom left, where the corner is seen taking the lining up to the left of the vertical handrail.

 

As you say, the lining is also evident on the bunker, where it can be seen continuing round the back, as we are given to understand was the practice, and I can detect traces of the thin orange line in places on the upper edge of the upper curved line.

 

Further, one can also see the faint outline of the lining on the cab side-sheet, and, towards the acute angle at the bottom left, the lining becomes more defined, and one can, again, pick up the orange-black-orange bands.

[Edwardian]

Ah yes, I think I've seen that 551 pic before somewhere, but can't remember where. I don't have a copy. Perhaps Lee Marsh has decided to drop it from his 517 range.

 

One of the real problems in this area is the relative insensivity of the b&w emulsions to the red end, which is well known, but the insensitivity to chrome orange is total. (And the black lining is often not particularly distinguishable from the bodywork dark green, unless the loco is very clean.)

 

Even as late as 1925, on a sparkling new and clean 4082 (Her Majesty is on the footplate!), the red route colour disc shows reasonably well, but the chrome orange is rendered invisible:

 

4082-in-1925-detail.jpg

 

A good point.  We could play a round of "Film or Film?", by which I mean "does my inability to pick out the lining on a loco proceed from a film of dirt on the locomotive or from the peculiarities of the monochrome photographic film?" 

 

Take albums such as The Great Western in the 1930s.  I have often thought it odd that, on apparently reasonably clean express passenger locomotives, it is sometimes hard to discern any lining, on, say, tenders, in those classic oblique views of advancing trains. In many cases you can pick out the lining, and see the lighter strip of the chrome orange, but it is faint, and not at all prominent; the expected contrast is not there.  The effect is often that of lining dulled and obscured under a layer of grime, but was that typically the case?  

 

By contrast, in The Great Days of the Great Western there are 3 colour photographs showing lined passenger classes, 2 from 1935 (perfect for me - roundels with red lamps!), and one from 1939.

 

In fairly clean, but certainly in-service condition, one thing is clear, the tender lining is very evident in each case.

 

I conclude that it is probably more a case of photographic film that a film of dirt that dulls, and sometimes obscures, the lining in most cases.

 

My own close-ups, showing part of each picture, are not of the best, but hopefully illustrate the point:

Edited September 7, 2017 by Edwardian

[johnarcher]

re 551 - Perhaps you have better eyes than I do!

It raises a bit of a question though, knowing that some such engines were unlined if one can't see lining (or think we can't) do we assume it's there but hard to see, or that this is an unlined one - like the three Miss P linked to above?

Also I wonder, if one can't produce the orange line to scale (about 0.04mm from a quick, fallible, mental calculation), and it might be invisible if one could (#9 above) how much is an overscale ('gaudy' as Miss P put it) line a mis-representation?

Edited September 7, 2017 by johnarcher

[Miss Prism]

 

Buffalo 1635, shortly after receiving its panniers. The lining looks at first to be too wide, but the particular photographic emulsion in this case has rendered the chrome orange as very dark as well.