Left Hand or Right Hand coach - what does this mean

[DCB]

The GWR protocol was that for passenger safety concerns the front two compartments and the rear two compartments on a train were not to be used other than by railway staff, If there was a brake compartment at front and rear then this did not apply, hence the B sets.

The GW liked Brake Composites as they included 1st 3rd and brake accommodation in one vehicle, so there were far more of one hand Brake Composites than the other. 

I am afraid I took a knife to a Centenary and an old Hornby Collett to change the hand of the corridor because having the corridor change sides annoyed me and I model late 50s BR

 A 1930 GW Coach formation book I read suggests the GW had very few fixed formation trains and most were formed (and reformed) of several portions, hence the untidy mixed look of most GW expresses of the 1930s CRE excepted

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR protocol was that for passenger safety concerns the front two compartments and the rear two compartments on a train were not to be used other than by railway staff, If there was a brake compartment at front and rear then this did not apply, hence the B sets.

 

Have you got a reference for that one please David?   I seem to be looking in the wrong places as the only Instruction i can find (in the CWPs) is that brake ends should be provided at each outer end of a train/portion except where the CWP or a Notice showed otherwise.

[Donw]

I never knew the GWR days but I do have a memory that the trains between used to have the corridors mostly on the same side because I can remember it feeling odd when encountering one where the corridor changed sides this would have been in the fifties. If this was the case the poor devil devising the coach working diagrams would have had a headache as a working such as Padd - Plymouth, Plymouth-Birkenhead, Birkenhead-PAdd would have reversed the train.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

I never knew the GWR days but I do have a memory that the trains between used to have the corridors mostly on the same side because I can remember it feeling odd when encountering one where the corridor changed sides this would have been in the fifties. If this was the case the poor devil devising the coach working diagrams would have had a headache as a working such as Padd - Plymouth, Plymouth-Birkenhead, Birkenhead-PAdd would have reversed the train.

Don

At times like that you start drawing little diagrams to remind yourself what is which way round  If you are turning a complete train it is no problem (provided the formation is symmetrical) but if you are turning portions only it can get a lot more 'interesting' remembering what is where when  (and I was doing that with some train planning stuff in the late 1990s - nothing changes).

[Shadow]

Possibly another stupid question, if passenger stock was rotated, where (and how) did this occur?

 

A quick google found no images of coaching stock on turntables.

 

Edit :- Apart from this one from "Thomas the Tank Engine" !

Edited July 12, 2015 by Shadow

[Fat Controller]

Possibly another stupid question, if passenger stock was rotated, where (and how) did this occur?

 

A quick google found no images of coaching stock on turntables.

 

Edit :- Apart from this one from "Thomas the Tank Engine" !

Triangles.

Often, these were part of the train's planned route; a Paddington- Pembroke Dock train would reverse orientation once at Swansea, and again at Carmarthen. Doubtless similar triangles existed elsewhere on the GWR, and indeed nationwide; it wasn't only rakes of GWR stock that needed turning, but TPO rakes with their pick-up gear.

We have a similar situation at Eurotunnel- trains normally run with the single-deck section (tourist shuttle) or Amenity Car (HGV shuttle). Sometimes, usually on Saturday nights, the trains don't run round around in circles as they normally do; instead they either depart via the arrival loop or arrive via the departure fan, so the trains are in reverse formation for one half of their round trip. This is planned to occur when there aren't too many trains. Sometimes, though, because of a point or signalling problem, this 'en-tiroir' operation has to take place at a busier time. At this point, everyone looks for a Biro with a removable top- invaluable for reminding one of the orientation of each train.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Fat Controller

[The Stationmaster]

Possibly another stupid question, if passenger stock was rotated, where (and how) did this occur?

 

A quick google found no images of coaching stock on turntables.

 

Edit :- Apart from this one from "Thomas the Tank Engine" !

There was a turntable at Old Oak Common passenger yard which was used to turn individual vehicles but in most cases triangles were used to turn trains or portions thereof while the trick for an ecs between Paddington and Old Oak was to 'go round Greenford' which basically meant taking the train round what amounted to a return loop thereby turning it in the process.

 

Turning was sometimes essential for things such as bullion vans which only had doors on one side (as was getting the train they were in into the right platform at destination - for example it was not unusual to re-platform arriving trains at Paddington on a pre-planned basis in order to get a bullion van to a platform both on the right side and in a place where it could be dealt with in reasonably secure conditions.

Edited July 12, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[Coach bogie]

Triangles.

 it wasn't only rakes of GWR stock that needed turning, but TPO rakes with their pick-up gear.

 

 

It depended on the route with the TPO net vehicles. For routes such as Cornwall where turning the rake was impossible, pick up nets were provided on the opposite side for the return journey so the up Great Western TPO rake did not have to be turned.

 

I was told the triangle at Gloucester was cause for issue with up Cheltenham Flyer passengers who reserved forward facing seats from Cheltenham. This was fine leaving Cheltenham on the slow part of the Journey, but on on departure from Gloucester, passengers found themselves with back facing seats.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Donw]

At times like that you start drawing little diagrams to remind yourself what is which way round  If you are turning a complete train it is no problem (provided the formation is symmetrical) but if you are turning portions only it can get a lot more 'interesting' remembering what is where when  (and I was doing that with some train planning stuff in the late 1990s - nothing changes).

 

I am not in the least surprised that you have practical experience of this Mike. The thought occurred to me as I typed. I have been trying to get my head round some through coach workings which you know about. That would add more into the mix as they were moved from train to train across companies. so could easily disrupt alignment of the corridors. All the careful planning could be undone with a last minute platform change due to late running or engine failure of an earlier train.

Don

[Donw]

It depended on the route with the TPO net vehicles. For routes such as Cornwall where turning the rake was impossible, pick up nets were provided on the opposite side for the return journey so the up Great Western TPO rake did not have to be turned.

 

I was told the triangle at Gloucester was cause for issue with up Cheltenham Flyer passengers who reserved forward facing seats from Cheltenham. This was fine leaving Cheltenham on the slow part of the Journey, but on on departure from Gloucester, passengers found themselves with back facing seats.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

It was still happening with the HST sets in the 80/90s you could never be sure if you reserved a seat from Gloucester which way round it would be.

Don

[Pacific231G]

"The idea was that, to facilitate loading, the corridor would be on the platform side at Paddington no. 1 platform"

 

Given that coaches are not turned at the end of the journey, doesn't that mean that the corridor is only on the platform side for half the time?

Yes, but if the train left from Paddington no 1 platform that half would include the one place where most of the train's passengers would be boarding at once and that's a lot quicker if they're boarding on the corridor side. The return working for say a WofE train would have passengers boarding at Penzance, Plymouth, Newton Abbot, Exeter Taunton and so on. There would therefore be smaller numbers at each station so if they had to board onto the compartment side it would be less likely to hold things up. 

[Pacific231G]

The GWR protocol was that for passenger safety concerns the front two compartments and the rear two compartments on a train were not to be used other than by railway staff, If there was a brake compartment at front and rear then this did not apply, hence the B sets.

The GW liked Brake Composites as they included 1st 3rd and brake accommodation in one vehicle, so there were far more of one hand Brake Composites than the other. 

I am afraid I took a knife to a Centenary and an old Hornby Collett to change the hand of the corridor because having the corridor change sides annoyed me and I model late 50s BR

 A 1930 GW Coach formation book I read suggests the GW had very few fixed formation trains and most were formed (and reformed) of several portions, hence the untidy mixed look of most GW expresses of the 1930s CRE excepted

Interesting David. I've never heard that one for the GWR but it was the law in France that express trains or "rapides" with wooden bodied coaches had to have a fourgon (baggage car) or a baggage compartment in front of the passenger accomodation. If that wasn't possible passengers had to be excluded from the first three compartments.

 

Just to complicate things, post office staff were regarded as passengers so, if there was a postal sorting car at the head of the train, a fourgon (or an unstaffed postal tender) had to be marshalled behind the loco.

 

I'm aware that American trains usually had non-passenger cars such as baggage, postal, express and TPOs at the front, hence the term "head end equipment" but I'd always understood that this was simply to facilitate speedy switching by the train's own locomotive. I now wonder if it might also have been due to a similar regulation. 

[olivegreen]

It depended on the route with the TPO net vehicles. For routes such as Cornwall where turning the rake was impossible, pick up nets were provided on the opposite side for the return journey so the up Great Western TPO rake did not have to be turned.

 

I was told the triangle at Gloucester was cause for issue with up Cheltenham Flyer passengers who reserved forward facing seats from Cheltenham. This was fine leaving Cheltenham on the slow part of the Journey, but on on departure from Gloucester, passengers found themselves with back facing seats.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I don't know if it is still the case, but when I lived in Edinburgh and took the train to the south west of England, it would go via Carstairs, where it joined the Glasgow portion and then of course left in the reverse direction to the south. I would always reserve a backward-facing seat from Waverley in the knowledge that it would be forward-facing for the better part of the journey to Taunton.

 

Edited to add that this was loco-hauled stock, not HST, of course.

Edited July 13, 2015 by olivegreen

[BWsTrains]

I don't know if it is still the case, but when I lived in Edinburgh and took the train to the south west of England, it would go via Carstairs, where it joined the Glasgow portion and then of course left in the reverse direction to the south. I would always reserve a backward-facing seat from Waverley in the knowledge that it would be forward-facing for the better part of the journey to Taunton.

 

Edited to add that this was loco-hauled stock, not HST, of course.

In Japan and Spain they flip all the seats around 180 degrees (in just a few minutes) in these turn-around situations, I've seen it done! Totally disoriented me the first time I found my reserved seat had "changed" sides in the carriage

[Compound2632]

Don't quote me on this but something in the back of my mind tells me the LNWR flirted with left and right handed coaches, I shall have to go through all my books now to see if they did. Steve

 

I know this is an old thread that has just had one recent comment but I couldn't resist the temptation to subvert the Great Western-ness of things by agreeing with Londontram - from diagrams and photos in Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages, it's clear that both the original 42' bogie stock of 1893 and the luxury 12-wheelers of 1908, for the 2pm - the original 'Corridor' and the country's premier express passenger service - were built to have the corridor down one side, including 'handed' brake carriages. As far as I can work out, the corridor seems to have been on the eastern side of the train. 

[BWsTrains]

Nice to see a good old thread jump back to life!

 

I came here to understand the quirks of 1930s GWR coach configurations as I'm just getting into the topic. Two attractive Clerestories are already gracing my tracks and now new 57' Colletts just hitting the shelves. So the Posts here proved most fruitful in several ways, Rovex's #9 post was indeed the picture worth 1000 words, also info on the mix of types fits well for me so thanks to everyone.

 

BTW when I was commenting about seat turning, I'd missed #35. Do they rotate seat orientation on HSTs these days?     

[Edwardian]

Nice to see a good old thread jump back to life!

 

I came here to understand the quirks of 1930s GWR coach configurations as I'm just getting into the topic. Two attractive Clerestories are already gracing my tracks and now new 57' Colletts just hitting the shelves. So the Posts here proved most fruitful in several ways, Rovex's #9 post was indeed the picture worth 1000 words, also info on the mix of types fits well for me so thanks to everyone.

 

BTW when I was commenting about seat turning, I'd missed #35. Do they rotate seat orientation on HSTs these days?     

 

Hi, I find that the coach working timetables are very useful, but to get a 'feel' for what ran, you can't do better than photographs.  For the '30s I have found Soole's pictures, in the 2-volume GW in the '30s, and Lockett's particularly useful.

 

They are, of course, the inspiration, too, as 80 years ago is effectively beyond living memory now!