GWR. 'CASTLES' BOILER WASH-OUTS - Frequency

[unclebobkt]

      In the book 'GWR/BR (WR) Castle Class.' - ISBN. 9 780857 33271 4. - boilers' wash-outs are shewn as occuring every four days.  No maintenance/servicing reference is given.

  That period of four days does seem rather frequent to me.

  I might have thought that a suitable water-treatment  would have INCREASED the period between wash-outs.

  From the same book I see that most of the 'King.' class were fitted with the 'Alfloc.' system, (a joint BR./ICI. endeavour.), in 1954. - but NOT the 'Castles.' apparently.

      

[K14]

The problem with water treatment is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' answer as the quality of the supply varies from shed to shed, so I suspect that there isn't a loco-specific answer to your question - it'd depend where it was shedded, what it was booked to do & where it went.
 
The following Swindon Engineering Society lectures might be of interest:—
 
No. 68: Selection and Improvement of Water for Boiler Purposes, by W. R. Bird, F.C.S. Read 6th March 1906
No. 160: Locomotive Boiler Washing, by W.H. Pearce. Read 1st Dec. 1927
No. 179: Modern Water Treatment and Sodium Aluminate, by R. B. Beal & S. Stevens. Read 5th Feb. 1931
No. 180: Running Shed Practice, by H. W. Knott. Read 24th Feb. 1931
No. 205: Water Engineering, by F. H. Coleby. Read 28th Jan. 1936

Pete S.

[unclebobkt]

The problem with water treatment is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' answer as the quality of the supply varies from shed to shed, so I suspect that there isn't a loco-specific answer to your question - it'd depend where it was shedded, what it was booked to do & where it went.

 

The following Swindon Engineering Society lectures might be of interest:—

 

No. 68: Selection and Improvement of Water for Boiler Purposes, by W. R. Bird, F.C.S. Read 6th March 1906

No. 160: Locomotive Boiler Washing, by W.H. Pearce. Read 1st Dec. 1927

No. 179: Modern Water Treatment and Sodium Aluminate, by R. B. Beal & S. Stevens. Read 5th Feb. 1931

No. 180: Running Shed Practice, by H. W. Knott. Read 24th Feb. 1931

No. 205: Water Engineering, by F. H. Coleby. Read 28th Jan. 1936

 

Pete S.

 

       For these many thanks - all most interesting and will afford many hours of study.  Possibly keep my scanner/printer busy, too.

      

[jjb1970]

Boiler water treatment and boiler cleaning tend to be determined by water quality. If you use demineralised water then boilers do not need that much dosing and blowing down (although they do still need it), looking at the sort of quality used for locomotives I think they'd need frequent wash outs and a lot of dosing and it would still not stop a steady deterioration in the boilers.

[Mike 84C]

I worked at Banbury in the 1960"s although we had no Castles there were a number of Halls,72"s,38"s 61"s and 9f"s plus others and once a month wash out if they were lucky was more the norm. Only the 9f"s had Naflock water treatment. These were a sort  of larger than a cricket ball shape and brown in colour and the treatment consisted of tipping a couple of sacks full into a small lid on the back of the tender. Under the lid was a perforated tube/basket which was in the water space so the blocks could dissolve. When the water became a creamy sort of colour,or the loco started priming or the regulator stuck open( very scary) it was judged a good time to blow the boiler down, done with a full head of steam!. The mess in the pit bottom was staggering, not popular with the shed labourers, or the shedmaster as the favourite spot was right outside his office! I jest not!  As Banbury was in a very hard water area all this happened very often. Hope this is of interest.

[unclebobkt]

  The problem with water treatment is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' answer as the quality of the supply varies from shed to shed, so I suspect that there isn't a loco-specific answer to your question - it'd depend where it was shedded, what it was booked to do & where it went.

   ... .      Pete S.

 

      Agreed.

  During several of my lifetimes I worked in Saudi Arabian hospitals, both Gov't./public & private,  on the Ops. & Maint'ce. side of things - hence both hot water & steam boilers came under my purview:  mainly in Riyadh, roughly in the desert & central area, and later on in Taif, up in the mountains and o'looking the Red Sea.  In Riyadh the hospital used Houseman, UK., chemicals while in Taif we availed of Hach, USA., (also METITO, Cyprus,  for Raw Sewage Treatment - but that's a different story!),  so I heard all about it from several & different sources.

  Of course one CANNOT compare fairly LOW presure steam-boilers for hospital use, (oil-fired),  with HIGH pressure & locomotive boilers, (coal fired.),  but we certainly had our share of getting the chemical combinations aright to sort-out the water problems, especially as I was the first engineer to pay any serious attention to boilers on both the water and on the fire sides, so a certain amount of leeway to make-up was required.  Fortunately most of my boiler-rooms' staffs were reasonably educated Filippinos who didn't need all that much direction to take care of their boilers during their eight hours' shifts. 

  In Taif MORE attention was paid to the water's biological quality than to its chemical composition, so I had to overcome a certain amount of initial resistance to get the Lab. to furnish me with chemical analyses, but once the need was explained and seen all were well.

     

[coachmann]

Boiler washout every four days seems excessive in view of the fact that boilers do not take kindly to frequent warming up and cooling down. I would say around 20 days was more like it in steam days, meaning around 16 days in traffic then a cooling down period that could be reduced with a hot water boiler washout. Preserved locos do not need this amount of washing out due to the reduced nature of their work and so it might be once a month. The 4 days mentioned by the OP might be a typo meaning 14 days depending on a locos mileage. 

[JeremyC]

I would say water quality is the biggest factor. I've seen quite a few references in books on the ECML to the fact that the boilers on locomotives based at Haymarket generally had longer lives and required less frequent washouts than members of the same class based in England. The difference being Scottish water is generally soft as against the hard water in much of England.

 

Jeremy

[Mike 84C]

After leaving BR service but needing a steam fix I volunteered for the Festiniog & finished up on the staff of Boston Lodge.  Washing out is all down to water quality and the strictness of the treatment regime, which was very strictly controlled.  If I remember correctly, part of the cocktail was an oxygen scavenger, a tannin to coat the boiler inside and tubes plus an anti-foaming agent. Monthly water sampling almost made boiler washes a twice a year job, I do mean almost!!, but at ten year exam when the tubes have to be removed for insurance inspection of the shell and firebox the tubes were often in almost perfect condition. Cutting them out with a gas torch does ruin the ends!  Hope this is also of interest but does show how the cost of running steam locos is so high.

   Mike

[The Stationmaster]

During WWII the GWR issued an Instruction to ensure that all boilers were washed out at 10 day intervals. 

[david.hill64]

In the BTF educational film 'Wash and Brush Up' the boiler washout of a standard class 5 is shown in detail. IIRC it says that the wash-outs were necessary every 12-14 days, but as others have posted, water quality will be a deciding factor.

[unclebobkt]

   ... .

... .  The 4 days mentioned by the OP might be a typo meaning 14 days depending on a locos mileage. 

 

  I quote directly from the book, page 120. -

 

  '... .  As a high-performance machine, therefore, boiler washouts were performed on Castles after every four days of operation.'.

 

  WRT. to water-quality, water-treatment and so on and so forth the following web-site might be recommended as being of possible interest:

>> www.martynbane.co.uk/ <<

     

[The Stationmaster]

  I quote directly from the book, page 120. -

 

  '... .  As a high-performance machine, therefore, boiler washouts were performed on Castles after every four days of operation.'.

 

  WRT. to water-quality, water-treatment and so on and so forth the following web-site might be recommended as being of possible interest:

>> www.martynbane.co.uk/ <<

     

That doesn't seem to fit with reality in some cases at least.  Our 'through Londons' on the branch were almost invariably worked by the same engines for a week, in their later steam hauled years at any rate.  So at least one 'Castle' must have done at least 5 days in traffic every week before receiving a washout.  We are also talking about an engine running on Thames Valley water which was hard although it didn't seem to count as one of the GWR's worst in terms of its effects on boilers (although some of it was softened) although Old Oak Common water was apparently (according to Cook) not of the best as it came from the canal.

 

However there was one engine using those sources which at the very best was managing at least 5 days of work between washout opportunities and as it often had work on at least one day at the weekend it must at times have been managing at least 6 days.  Cook mentions 12 -14 days in passing at point but not clearly enough to establish if that was some sort of standard or average and which classes it applied to.  Very much depends on the quality of water but then equally Cook mentions that in time Swindon was achieving in excess of 800,000 miles out of boilers between overhauls - which would obvioulsy be dependent on tyoe of water, water treatment used, and washout frequency.

[Pobrien]

Actual records of Standard 5 73015 at Bristol Barrow Road in June 1964

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5603657454/in/photolist-9xbd6o-cKpB9j-9xbd8G-fbSnVz-rtMNqX

 

and the engine itself

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5603657320/in/photolist-9xbd6o-cKpB9j-9xbd8G-fbSnVz-rtMNqX

 

and the roster board which provided the information. The "washout" section can be seen at the top

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5238032214/in/photolist-8YShuf-9Mu3c5-9MrehZ-9aBmNp-8YPeRr-9xbdcm

[rockershovel]

Interesting comment above, about Filipino boiler room staff. Filipinos are commonly encountered as deck crew, slingers and lifting gangs, and engine room personnel in the offshore industry. I've also encountered them as miners driving road headers and similar equipment.

 

There's obviously something about their education system that equips them for such roles. Whatever it is, we might usefully copy it.

[unclebobkt]

After leaving BR service but needing a steam fix I volunteered for the Festiniog & finished up on the staff of Boston Lodge.  Washing out is all down to water quality and the strictness of the treatment regime, which was very strictly controlled.  If I remember correctly, part of the cocktail was an oxygen scavenger, a tannin to coat the boiler inside and tubes plus an anti-foaming agent. Monthly water sampling almost made boiler washes a twice a year job, I do mean almost!!, but at ten year exam when the tubes have to be removed for insurance inspection of the shell and firebox the tubes were often in almost perfect condition. Cutting them out with a gas torch does ruin the ends!  Hope this is also of interest but does show how the cost of running steam locos is so high.

   Mike

 

      Mike 84C. - Thank you for your reply.  From what you write about Water Quality it would appear that the Festiniog Rly. was one of several & Welch narrow-gauge railways availing of the 'Porta Treatment.' system.

  Vide various & written articles by Mr. S. McMahon et al. on the practical application of the Porta Treatment, which, in itself, was based initially on the French & 'TIA.' system, of which , as far as I know, only the SR. in Great Britain, under Mr. OV. Bulleid availed.

  Read, also, the a/m. web-site by Mr. Martyn Bane: >> martynbane.co.uk << , (posting #13.),  which is replete with pertinent data & information about the Porta Treatment of boilers' water.

     

[unclebobkt]

  In the BTF educational film 'Wash and Brush Up' the boiler washout of a standard class 5 is shown in detail. IIRC it says that the wash-outs were necessary every 12-14 days, but as others have posted, water quality will be a deciding factor.

 

      Yesterday., 18 june, evening I saw this LM&SR. & educational film and found it quite instructive.

  One thing that I noticed was that COLD water washing was employed.  I might have thought that allowing the boiler to cool-down, then squirting in COLD water might cause any mud, sludge and other gross matter to solifify,  thus, and should they build-up,  requiring mechical means to break-up and to dislodge.

  Certainly the whole procedure was very labour-intensive and working conditions LESS than optimum judging by today's standards.

 

  IIRC. both the major & American railroad systems and the GWR. used HOT water washing, which reportedly had two advantages:

>.1.- Locomotives were OUT of service for shorter periods,    &

>.2.- HOT wash-out stopped the mud etc. etc. from solidifying.

  Of course HOT water wash-outs required a source of HOT water - usually supplied by a stationary boiler;  possibly in this day and age of 'Bean-counters.' not economically worthwhile?